A Little Nutty - Scientology: Busted; Religion: Plausible

05/02/2008
This exact scale rendering shows how cramped Noah's Ark really would have been.
Dude, we're totally serious, people will believe anything.
Dumb Da-Dumb Dumb Dumb
Seen here: Tom Cruise's PhD in Neurology pays off in a debate against a clearly baffled, and glib, Matt Lauer. He knows the history damn it!
The E-Meter is available in several attractive colors. Just don't sell yours on eBay. Unless you enjoy being sued, that is.
Person A: "Man, that Scientology is a freak-ass cult".
Person B: "Who are you to say anything about Scientology? You believe in God!"

Chances are you have seen examples of this all over the place. People writing off all religions, or better yet, anyone who believes in any religion based on the faulty premise that all religions are created equal.

It's true, all religions require a certain leap of faith. It's perfectly reasonable to consider all religious people duped. It's just not reasonable to pretend that any religious person, of any creed, is taking an equal leap of faith as someone else of a different faith. At their core most religions are a hypothesis of the origin of our existence, and what happens after we die. Like any hypothesis, they aren't necessarily all of equal merit. Some are better, some are worse, and generally speaking there is only one right answer.

Which beliefs do we have scientific evidence directly in contradiction to? More importantly, since we're talking about religion (so science be damned), which one is just flat out more plausible? Which has the most red flags? I'll break down three religions I know a little about: Christianity, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and Scientology.

The Religions in a Nutshell


Christianity - God (The same one Jews and Muslim's believe in, F.Y.I.) created the heavens and the Earth. A few plagues, sacrifices, and a flood later, he sent his only son, Jesus, to Earth so he could die for the sins of the world. During his adult life on Earth Jesus spent much of his time teaching lessons of peace. Do onto others as you would want them to do onto you, turn the other cheek, love your neighbor, and other such niceties. After being betrayed by a disciple Jesus was crucified, he then went to heaven, at which point he began helping out with the family business.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) - The LDS started with Christianity, and turned it up a notch. All the major players are there, though they don't believe Jesus died for all our sins. Murderers can't be forgiven and adulterers only get one freebie. Most other differences are somewhat minor things like the Mormon belief that good works get you into heaven and that God is a being with "flesh and bone." One of the bigger differences is that Mormons, apparently, believe in multiple "worlds", which each have their own God. Anyone could become a God if they wanted, and even "our" God wasn't always all-powerful.

Scientology - Scientology was founded by Sci-Fi author L. Ron Hubbard. In 1950 he wrote a book called Dianetics. It was basically his theory on psychiatry and how it worked. According to Hubbard, mental and psychosomatic physical problems are caused by traumatic recordings called engrams. Eventually Scientology lobbied to be officially designated a religion so they could help more people learn the truth. Just kidding, it was because they didn't feel the millions of dollars they profit on personality/stress tests should be subject to taxes. As for the beliefs themselves, there's really nothing I can do to explain what Scientoligists believe about our origins that can't be exquisitely summed up by this South Park clip.



The Xenu story, however, is only told to people who are invested (a word I use literally) in the church enough that they big wigs determine you're ready. In fact, I hope you're all still with me, since it's commonly believed in the “Church” that hearing the story is fatal if you aren't ready. Thus all Scientologists do not yet know about Xenu and the Volcanoes, most only believe in the engrams and the process of “clearing” yourself of them.

Plausibility


Christianity


Plausibility Score – 10 (baseline*)

What makes it Implausible
There are a few things science can point to that would make one cast a skeptical eye at the Bible. Some people believe by reading in between the lines they can use the Bible to date the Earth, and I assume the rest of the universe as well, to roughly 6000 years old. This is shown to be an irrational claim by multiple areas of science.

Taking the Bible at its literal word could also throw out the overwhelming preponderance of evidence mounted over the years by geology, paleontology, biogeography, zoology, botany, comparative anatomy, molecular biology, genetics and embryology regarding the theory of evolution in regards to the origin of life in general and humans in particular.

Literal readers of the Bible also get burned by a common problem to all books of prophecy when it comes to the story about Noah's Ark, localized shortsightedness. In one small corner of the world, taking only the animals you knew of, it might have been feasible for the ship Noah was told to build could take them all. To date we know of 1.8 million species of animal, not counting microscopic life. Even assuming we factor out marine life, which the Bible doesn't explicitly do, things get dicey for Noah pretty quickly.

It seems odd to me that one of the few things in the Bible painstakingly described was the construction of the Ark. It pretty much stops just shy of attaching a blueprint. As such we know exactly what a logistical nightmare this would have been. The boat was too small for the cargo, but big enough that it would crumble under its own weight.

Compound to this problem the lack of “believing” in the theory of evolution would mean that Noah would have to bring aboard 2 (or 7) of every animal that EVER existed and things get out of hand quickly. Likewise these same evolution deniers, with no sense of irony, will try and rationalize that Noah only had to take “kinds” of animals (a fairly meaningless statement in-and-of itself.) For example, Noah didn't need to take every kind of wolf, fox, dog, etc. He needed only to grab any male and female canine and the animals would “diversify” again after the flood on their own.

None of this is, of course, factoring the problem of gathering/storing/distributing food and water for all these animals and the obvious problem that most of these animals is food to something else on the boat. Or where he got wood in the desert. Or how he built something in the early bronze age, with no crew or experience, that people couldn't years later. What about all the plant life? Where did the different races of people come from afterwards?

What makes it Plausible
Christianity has a couple saving graces when it comes to its plausibility factor. The biggest one is that it isn't a universal belief that the Bible, at least the Old Testament, is to be read literally. The story of Noah is believed by many to be allegorical. (Perhaps a stark reminder that what can be given can be taken away, or some other meaning.)

The story of man's creation in the Bible is full of gray area, even if you're interpreting the Bible literally, let alone if you aren't. The Bible is sketchy on the details, other than at some time God decided it was time to create man. It doesn't say how he did it or if we were in our current form. Even the last couple Popes have made note of the fact that evolution is undeniable at this point and also doesn't conflict with the teachings of the Bible. Pope Benedict has even gone so far as calling denying evolution an "absurdity."

There are also many beliefs that really don't stem from any literal statements, such as the final un-addressed issue from above. The Bible never states the Earth is 6000 years old, it's just a date figured by people reading it. At some point they have to be making many assumptions. Even if you arrive back at the point of creation using lineage, who says those days equal Earth days. Why would God be bound by an arbitrary time period determined by the spinning of one of a gazillion planets he hadn't even created yet?

You'll often hear people say “Well, just because Christianity is older doesn't make it more likely.” I think in general they would be right. Older doesn't mean better. In this case however it does. I'll get to why in a moment.

Taken at its most abstract Christianity is nothing more than a set of rules on how to behave one's self in society. Don't murder each other, don't steal, don't do anything to someone you wouldn't want them to do to you, but be quick to forgive someone else when they do it anyway. There are worse messages out there than this.

LDS Church (Mormon)


Plausibility Score – 6

What makes it Implausible
As I mentioned before this is just Christianity plus (Christianity - Now with a hint of racism!) so it has all the implausibilities of Christianity plus a few doozies.

The origin of the book of Mormon is insulting to the intelligence of anyone with a pulse. An angel named Moroni led Joseph Smith, a previously arrested con man who charged people to lead them to non existent treasures using a seer stone, to some gold plates and a special pair reading glasses to decode it. Since Smith was, for all intents and purposes, illiterate (he could read a bit, but not write) he needed someone to write down what he read off the plates. No one else ever saw the plates. As a test of the plates' existence part of the previously transcribed pages were hidden to see if Smith could recreate them. Smith told the man who was transcribing the story that God was angry about them losing the pages and that they would have to use a different set of plates. Even though God should have known the other two just hid the pages, and the gist of the story was the same.

Other inconsistencies or flat out errors:

Not being able to comprehend such a thing as DNA the book of Mormon states Native Americans are solely descended from Hebrews in Jerusalem. This is simply false.

The book contains words like “Sam,” “Christ,” and “synagogue” which were not around at the time the plates were supposedly “forged”. The book also contains sections plagiarized from books, including the King James version of the Bible, which were not published “pre-plate”

The book discussed advancements that the people native to America simply didn't have. These things include: Literacy of Hebrew and Egyptian, knowledge of metal smelting, domesticated horses/cattle, and chariots.

What makes it Plausible
I don't think you can give them the same “It doesn't have to be read literally” exception. If you don't literally believe what the Book of Mormon said then what makes you Mormon? There's no allegories there, if you didn't believe the events as described you'd just be a Christian.

I guess the only thing that I could see that would come closest to making the LDS Church more plausible is that after denying the DNA evidence at first, calling it a smear campaign, they have now accepted it, and have begun altering their literature accordingly. However, I'm really not sure how I feel about that either. If something is supposed to be literal and infallible than how can you alter one part and then say, “Oops, well this was one, very fundamental, tenet to what we believe is wrong, but we swear everything else is totally the truth?” I don't think you should be able to just change your sacred text like that. To me, either you believe, in spite of the evidence (reasoning that the evidence is just there to challenge your faith), or you stop believing. I mean really, doesn't it almost have to be an all or nothing thing?

Scientology


Plausibility Score – (Low level) 4 (Xenu story) 2

What makes it Implausible
A science fiction author, who once commented on religion as a sure fire money making scheme, started a religion based on aliens. I shouldn't have to go farther than this. Remember earlier when I said being older doesn't necessarily make a religion more plausible, but in this case it does? This is why. We don't have as much of an account of how Christianity got started as we do these other two, and what we do know about the origin of the Mormon church and Scientology should be enough to convince any reasonable person it's humbug right then and there.

As for the beliefs: “Low Level” Members - Engrams are a recording of a traumatic event by your unconscious mind. You get rid of them through auditing sessions with a “trained professional” and an “E-Meter,” which measures electrical resistance in the body. These, increasingly expensive, sessions are the only true way to mental health. It is believed all modern psychiatry is bunk, a ruse being pulled on the public to sell unnecessary medication. Our brains are always perfect. Diet, exercise, and audits are the only thing that stand between any of us and clean mental health.

This is, of course, complete and utter bullshit. Our brains are just organs and can have physical problems just like any other organ. On top of that there is no association what-so-ever between mental tension and electrical resistance in the body. Scientologists don't even seem to have much of a hypothesis on how the E-Meter works to measure what they are trying to measure. The only attempt to explain it I found was Hubbard saying that the mass of your hurt feelings leaving your body has an effect on the electrical current passing through you. I guess just in case his counseling scam didn't work out he was laying the ground work for a diet company. All that extra junk in your trunk is just unwanted memories!

Now, to the lay person, it does seem like we have become an over-medicated nation, but who's to say what percentage of it is unnecessary? Even if the amount of medication prescribed is sky rocketing, is that a bad thing? Perhaps all that means is we have a method of treating something now that we didn't a few years ago. As for their diet and exercise angle, there are indeed certain mental conditions, like depression, that can be exacerbated by a poor lifestyle and “cured” by a healthy one. However, almost any ethical doctor would be the first to point this out to you. I'm sure you can find a few bad eggs out there, but I'd be willing to bet most doctors would be very hesitant to prescribe a powerful medication to you, if your condition was such that 40 minutes of walking a week could alleviate it.

As for the “High Level/Xenu Story” Scientologists, I don't really know what there is to say. It would be like Steven King starting a religion as a thinly veiled tax dodge. Then, shortly there after, millions of people started believing possessed cars were responsible for our life here on Earth and horrible prom experiences from past lives caused all the woes of the world.

Ad hominem attacks aside, Hubbard claims in the Xenu story the universe is 80 trillion years old, which is off by a mere 79,986,300,000,000 years, a margin of error of roughly 99.98%. [In my best Uecker voice] Juuuust a bit outside.

It's also the only “religion” I can think of that charges you ahead of time for their services and materials. Some people give every penny they have to the church, and regardless of how much you've given you're out the day your bank account dries up. When you look into it and find out about Seaorg, the bizarre deaths, their litigious hush-hush nature regarding their true beliefs, the Tom Cruse interview, and the growing belief Suri Cruise is the reincarnation of L. Ron himself, the freakier it is, and the more it starts cementing its position on the Cult end of the spectrum. No matter how plausible their beliefs are, red flags are going up all over the place in regards to their intentions in the first place.

What makes it Plausible
With all the planets out there life on other planets is certainly a possibility. As such you would have to say that being bought to earth by another life form in the galaxy is more scientifically plausible than being created by a benevolent life force, if for no other reason than that a supernatural being would be outside the realm of science altogether. However, one could argue that this is equally unlikely since we have had no evidence of their being here, nor any return visits from anything in a universe supposedly so teeming with life that Xenu had to make some room.

In Conclusion

What's really left to say at this point? I think I've rambled on long enough. The moral of the story: Almost anyone has the right to call a Scientologist an idiot, even if they have religious beliefs of their own. Scientology is pretty high up there on my list of ridiculous things many people believe. It's not number one or number two though, and maybe I'll let you in on those in another rambling diatribe.

*As the most plausible of the three religions I'm going to use Christianity as the baseline (a perfect 10/10) for plausibility. Rating the “overall” plausibility of a religion would end up being completely meaningless, it only makes sense to rate them relative to one another. Obviously none of these is very plausible, but, at least in terms of Christianity, plausibility isn't really the point. It doesn't take much faith in something if it was actually likely to have happened.
wu4.gifCarlos44ec - 1204 Posts
05/02/2008 @ 12:09:30 PM
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I read it, and I had a nice comment set up but for some reason it didn't "take".

I think I said something about how I liked the article, but said there were some flaws in the criticism- just basic ones, but whatever. The example I gave though, was that Noah would have bought his lumber from merchants who did business with or who were from Syria, as they had a good monopoly on lumber. Just nit-picking.
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 5014 Posts
05/02/2008 @ 12:20:54 PM
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Yeah, sorry. There was one more manual step to adding an article I forgot.

Obviously transporting lumber is possible, but it would be a lot of lumber to haul, and then that would imply he was buying it and would bring the outright expense of building the ark into question. Plus, that's one small aspect that while doesn't "prove" anything one way or another, raises some red flags.
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jon.jpgJon - 1 bajillion posts
05/02/2008 @ 10:31:14 PM
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I also had a comment that didn't go through, but saved it so I could post it later. Here it is:


Jeremy, as always it is kind of you to take one of humanity's most complex subjects, then dissect it, and solve it in just a few paragraphs.

(That's a joke by the way. Don't take it maliciously.)

Seriously though, religion is obviously one of those "hot button" type issues where we could all debate every detail if we wanted, so I'll instead just put forth one of the thoughts that stuck out in my mind as I was reading.

OK, two thoughts actually. And they're both on the Christianity summary, since that's the one I have a large enough base of knowledge to work from.

You wrote: "God (The same one Jews and Muslim's believe in, F.Y.I.) created the heavens and the Earth"

It's the parenthetical statement specifically. I understand the statement mostly, and in one way of thinking I suppose it's accurate. But in another sense it's not. And there are all sorts of angles you can work from to say why the word "same" probably isn't accurate. But rather than write that term paper, I'll try to hit a couple main points.
Obviously Christianity is sort of a progression from Judaism, so it's centered around the Creator God, even from the same sacred text, up to a point, but the differences in views of who Jesus is changes the view, at least in part, of who that Creator God is. Obviously your statement dealt specifically with that God who existed at the beginning of time and created the earth, so it might seem like a "pre-Christian" type of issue since Christ walked the earth only just about 2000 years ago. But the Christian view, (according to Christ's words as recorded specifically in the gospel of John) is that he came from that Creator, or "the Father,"and, in fact, is one with that Father. The beginning of that gospel actually points back to the creation and notes that Christ was actually there and that, "Through him all things were made". The specifics of how that all works out can be open to debate, but that's mostly beside the point. That point being that the acceptance or non-acceptance of Jesus Christ as part of that entity referred to as "God" seems to define and differentiate who it is that each group believes in.
My knowledge of the specifics of how Muslim beliefs fit in is admittedly limited, but the concept is the same since they do not believe Jesus Christ to be divine in any way as far as I know, and in fact differ much more in other ways from the two other faiths.

I think the main issue with the whole "same" or "not the same" thing is that each faith traces it's roots back to Abraham, and more specifically, the God that Abraham served. (Judaism and Christianity basing this off the same set of accounts, Islam taking a different view if I'm not mistaken) So, at first glance, you could say they believe in the same God, yet the fundamental nature of that entity is different depending on who you talk to. So is it really "the same one Jews and Muslims believe in"?

I guess, to some, the distinction could seem like merely semantics or a difference in personal philosophy of "sameness" but I think it's much deeper than that, as it goes to the very center of the identification of who God is.

I think I probably rambled a bit there, sorry if I did. I'll just move on.

The second thing I wanted to bring up was where you wrote:
"After being betrayed by a disciple Jesus was crucified, he then went to heaven..."

If you're going to summarize the Christian beliefs you should really have mentioned Jesus' resurrection days after he was crucified.

I understand it was a succinct summary with a little personalized flair and whatnot, but that's a key point that shouldn't be left out.

Now that I've done commentary on that one small paragraph, I will give further installments of my thoughts on each of the remaining sections in the next few days.

Not really.
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Jon messed with this at 05/02/2008 10:32:46 pm
wu4.gifCarlos44ec - 1204 Posts
05/02/2008 @ 11:04:01 PM
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Jon- just a blerb on the "same God" thing- they all believe in the god of Abraham, and follow the same God from the first five books of the Old Testament, aka the Torah, Pentateuch, [GenExLevNumbDeut]

Basically, this is as accurate as any other statement Jerm makes.
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 5014 Posts
05/02/2008 @ 11:10:26 PM
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I think what Jon is getting at (though maybe not, but I think this is true of some sects of Christianity) is that Jesus and God are sort of one in the same, interchangeable, if you will. They are both separate and the same to us Catholics, however. Sometimes they're the same entity, other times there's the whole Holy Trinity thing.

Is this just a Catholic thing? (Obviously at least the end is.)

The Nicene Creed

the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
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Jeremy screwed with this 2 times, last at 05/02/2008 11:14:53 pm
fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 5014 Posts
05/02/2008 @ 11:23:18 PM
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Also, I could be wrong and I can't seem to find a nice succinct summary, but I think Islam's big schism came as a contrast to elevating Jesus to be "one with" God. They think God alone should be worshiped.
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - Broadcast in stunning 1080i
05/02/2008 @ 11:27:30 PM
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Also, I didn't intend to solve anything. I just wanted an excuse to call Scientology a cult and Scientologists idiots.
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jon.jpgJon - 1321 Posts
05/02/2008 @ 11:44:12 PM
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Hey Jeremy, thanks for making a comment then changing it in the middle of my response to it. The internet is so complicated sometimes.

Jeremy Wrote - 05/02/2008 @ 11:10:26 PM
I think what Jon is getting at (though maybe not, but I think this is true of some sects of Christianity) is that Jesus and God are sort of one in the same, interchangeable, if you will. They are both separate and the same to us Catholics, however. Sometimes they're the same entity, other times there's the whole Holy Trinity thing.

Is this just a Catholic thing?


Not exactly.


In Christianity there is God the Father, and Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
They all together are the one God.
Some of the confusion in making the distinctions is that the name "God" is often associated in peoples' minds and speech with God the Father. And also because it's still a monotheistic view but one in which the one God is comprised of three distinguishable yet non-separate "persons".

Beyond that, since Jeremy now posted the Nicene Creed up there, I guess I can stop for now since it sums it up pretty nicely. (Nicenely? Anyone?)
I'm pretty sure that creed is one which my Protestant church "adheres to" (I don't know if that's correct terminology, but it's one of those things that we agree with in other words).
The word "catholic" I'm pretty sure means something like "universal" in that context. In other words, there is ultimately only one Church under Christ.

Anyway, like I said in my original post, the issue of the "same God" is one of those things where you can look at it and say well yeah they all worship a single, Creator God who they acknowledge as the God of Abraham. But beyond that they believe that God to be different in fundamental aspects of identity. So, at what point does it stop being the "same God" that is worshiped?
Jeremy's article put out one view on the rather complex subject and I offered reasons to view it differently, at least in part.

Jeremy Wrote - 05/02/2008 @ 11:27:30 PM
Also, I didn't intend to solve anything. I just wanted an excuse to call Scientology a cult and Scientologists idiots.

I know. I was having fun. Especially in light of your article on middle ground, since I joked then about you "solving" all those hot button issues.
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Jon messed with this 2 times, last at 05/02/2008 11:49:54 pm
jon.jpgJon - infinity + 1 posts
05/03/2008 @ 12:51:33 AM
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Jeremy Wrote - 05/02/2008 @ 11:23:18 PM
Also, I could be wrong and I can't seem to find a nice succinct summary, but I think Islam's big schism came as a contrast to elevating Jesus to be "one with" God. They think God alone should be worshiped.


Yeah, from what I know or have heard, I guess it's accurate to say that's the "big" difference, but then again the entire view of how everything all kind of fits together seems to be different also.

I mean, the issue of Jesus is obviously the big difference between Christianity and Judaism. But Islam is quite different from Judaism too despite the fact that neither consider Jesus Christ to be the Messiah or in any way divine.

Carlos44ec Wrote - 05/02/2008 @ 11:04:01 PM
they all believe in the god of Abraham, and follow the same God from the first five books of the Old Testament, aka the Torah, Pentateuch, [GenExLevNumbDeut]


From what I can gather, Muslims seem to believe those first books, as Jews and Christians know them, are corrupted versions of the actual words Allah gave to humanity and the Quran was needed to correct this.
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Jon screwed with this at 05/03/2008 12:57:03 am
image.jpgCarlos44ec - 1204 Posts
05/03/2008 @ 08:33:02 AM
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The Muslims follow Abraham's first born son, rather than his second- remember the whole thing about Abraham's wife (was it Sarah?) couldn't provide an heir, so he married her servant (Haggar?) and she gave him Ishmael. Then, Sarah got pregnant and gave him the heir he prefered (Isaac?). This was the first split. I might have the names boofed, but the premise is sound.

From there, Judaism, Christianity and Islam split a few times on their own. They're rooted in the same god though.
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Carlos44ec messed with this at 05/03/2008 8:33:39 am
image.jpgCarlos44ec - 1204 Posts
05/03/2008 @ 08:35:15 AM
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My old Lutheran Church would say the Nicene Creed, and kept the "Holy Catholic Church" bit. Then I moved to EC, and the church was still Lutheran, but a different sublutheran something or other and we said "Christian Church"
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question_mark.gifbozz_2006 (Guest)
05/03/2008 @ 10:45:46 AM
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Carlos44ec - it is not "Holy Catholic" it is "holy catholic and apostolic". Catholic, with a capital c, refers to the Roman Catholic Church. the word "catholic" is actually just the ancient Greek word meaning, "general" or "universal". Apostolic means that the Church comes from Christ and is continued in and through Christ. So, "holy catholic and apostolic Church" means, the church was started by Christ and the Church consists of all forms of Christianity. Saying "Christian Church" in lieu of "holy catholic and apostolic Church" is redundant and misleading, since the ancient Greek word "ecclesia", meaning "community" or "gathering" or "group" was later transliterated into our word, "church" applies only to the Christian community. So, saying Christian Church is in fact stating the point twice, unnecessarily. Also, in regards to your comments about Isaac and Ishmael, you are close, but your premise is not sound. It was never about one of Abraham's sons being preferred by Abraham or by God. God promised a son to both Abraham and Sarah. Ishmael was Abraham's son, but not Sarah's. There was nothing wrong with Ishmael; he just wasn't the fulfillment of God's promise to both of them.

Jeremy - Muslims recognize Jesus as the 2nd to last prophet, Muhammad being the final prophet.
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jacobpeterdad.jpgbozz_2006
05/03/2008 @ 11:03:34 AM
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and Jeremy, in your article you said, "he sent his only son, Jesus, to Earth so he could die for the sins of the world."
That isn't exactly accurate either. Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. He was true God, 100% and true man, 100%. He did not come to earth to die. He came to earth to offer humans the free gift of salvation. God gave the law to Moses, and it became apparent that humans would never live up to it. Jesus came to put an end to the law. Being humans, we LOVE having measuring sticks. We used the law to measure ourselves against others, saying "I am more righteous than he". That was not the intent of the law. Out of love for us, God came down to earth to save us by putting an end to the law, and redeeming us all through God's grace. We didn't want to hear that, so we killed God. (and if Jesus came back, we'd kill him again). But God's love is SO great, that killing God wasn't even enough to stop him from reaching us in love. He overcame death himself, and overcame death for us all, once and for all. Christ was put to death under the law and raised in righteousness. Paul says, in Romans 6, "We have been buried with Christ by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life." In Christ, our sinful selves have been put to death and we are truly a new creation, in love.
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 5014 Posts
05/03/2008 @ 01:23:57 PM
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I was just giving extreme cliffs notes to pass along the gist of the religions, especially in the case of Christianity where 99% of the people that read this will know.

I think Jesus is a notable figure in Judaism as well. (Though not as big as Islam, and certainly not Christianity, obviously.)

I always find it peculiar that the most tension and biggest religious wars, at least in modern times, are between 3 fairly similar religions, not to mention sects of Christianity. I mean you would think they would be fighting Hindus and Buddhists or something. If I believed in my one God so much I was willing to kill people who thought differently I think I would start with the people who don't believe in him at all. Especially those religions that have many Gods. I don't think I'd start with the religions that have most of the key players that I believe in involved, but just don't interpret God's word in exactly the same manner.
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Jeremy edited this 3 times, last at 05/03/2008 1:26:05 pm
scott.jpgScott - No, I did not change your screen saver settings
05/03/2008 @ 01:46:27 PM
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Jeremy Wrote - 05/02/2008 @ 11:10:26 PM
I think what Jon is getting at (though maybe not, but I think this is true of some sects of Christianity) is that Jesus and God are sort of one in the same, interchangeable, if you will. They are both separate and the same to us Catholics, however. Sometimes they're the same entity, other times there's the whole Holy Trinity thing. Is this just a Catholic thing? (Obviously at least the end is.) The Nicene Creed the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.


The statement "on holy CATHOLIC and apostolic Church" does NOT refer to the Roman Catholic Church. Instead, the term "catholic", always written in lower case in this context, means "universal", and refers to the Christian church as a whole, and that one day (perhaps at judgement day) the church will be united as one.
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scott.jpgScott - 2820 Posts
05/03/2008 @ 01:47:11 PM
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bozz_2006 Wrote - 05/03/2008 @ 10:45:46 AM
Carlos44ec - it is not "Holy Catholic" it is "holy catholic and apostolic". Catholic, with a capital c, refers to the Roman Catholic Church. the word "catholic" is actually just the ancient Greek word meaning, "general" or "universal". Apostolic means that the Church comes from Christ and is continued in and through Christ. So, "holy catholic and apostolic Church" means, the church was started by Christ and the Church consists of all forms of Christianity. Saying "Christian Church" in lieu of "holy catholic and apostolic Church" is redundant and misleading, since the ancient Greek word "ecclesia", meaning "community" or "gathering" or "group" was later transliterated into our word, "church" applies only to the Christian community. So, saying Christian Church is in fact stating the point twice, unnecessarily. Also, in regards to your comments about Isaac and Ishmael, you are close, but your premise is not sound. It was never about one of Abraham's sons being preferred by Abraham or by God. God promised a son to both Abraham and Sarah. Ishmael was Abraham's son, but not Sarah's. There was nothing wrong with Ishmael; he just wasn't the fulfillment of God's promise to both of them. Jeremy - Muslims recognize Jesus as the 2nd to last prophet, Muhammad being the final prophet.


I posted my comment before I read this comment from Random A. Commentator.
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scott.jpgScott - 2820 Posts
05/03/2008 @ 01:48:16 PM
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Jeremy Wrote - 05/03/2008 @ 01:23:57 PM
I was just giving extreme cliffs notes to pass along the gist of the religions, especially in the case of Christianity where 99% of the people that read this will know. I think Jesus is a notable figure in Judaism as well. (Though not as big as Islam, and certainly not Christianity, obviously.) I always find it peculiar that the most tension and biggest religious wars, at least in modern times, are between 3 fairly similar religions, not to mention sects of Christianity. I mean you would think they would be fighting Hindus and Buddhists or something. If I believed in my one God so much I was willing to kill people who thought differently I think I would start with the people who don't believe in him at all. Especially those religions that have many Gods. I don't think I'd start with the religions that have most of the key players that I believe in involved, but just don't interpret God's word in exactly the same manner.


I think many of these wars were conflicts of territory, not so much about belief.
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scott.jpgScott - Brett Favre Brett Favre Brett Favre Brett Favre Brett Favre Brett Favre Bre
05/03/2008 @ 01:53:28 PM
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Jeremy Wrote - 05/02/2008 @ 11:23:18 PM
Also, I could be wrong and I can't seem to find a nice succinct summary, but I think Islam's big schism came as a contrast to elevating Jesus to be "one with" God. They think God alone should be worshiped.


Without evidence, I believe this to be close to the truth. In their minds, God would not "lower" himself so as to send his Son to earth as one of us humans. This is a very major difference between a God who truly cares and one who does not. The God of Islam is not a personal God. The God of Christianity is a personal God desiring a relationship with his people. Becoming man was a big part in establishing that relationship.
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scott.jpgScott - Dog fighting is sick. Don't be a Vick.
05/03/2008 @ 01:56:59 PM
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Jeremy Wrote - 05/02/2008 @ 11:27:30 PM
Also, I didn't intend to solve anything. I just wanted an excuse to call Scientology a cult and Scientologists idiots.


Best comment in this entire thread :).
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image.jpgCarlos44ec - 1204 Posts
05/04/2008 @ 05:49:03 PM
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I'm pretty sure that every Sunday for 7 years I said "Holy Catholic Church." Although I could be wrong, I doubt it.

You are right in saying that there wasn't anything wrong with Ishmael, it's just that in Abraham's eyes, he was the fulfillment, like you said. Even if he hadn't been, it is still a child with your Wife, as opposed to your proxy wife, and therefor would have been the prefered anyway.
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Carlos44ec messed with this 2 times, last at 05/04/2008 5:54:15 pm
wu4.gifCarlos44ec - 1204 Posts
05/04/2008 @ 05:55:10 PM
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Note- did you know that there is a Christian Cult either in Greece or Egypt that believe Jesus to have been an AntiChrist? Christ- the AntiChrist. Interesting.
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jacobpeterdad.jpgbozz_2006
05/04/2008 @ 10:23:21 PM
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You probably did say that. But the capital letters are key. even when they say the creed in the Roman Catholic Church, the word catholic isn't capitalized. It's just the greek word for "universal". Why did they decide to translate the whole creed except that one word? I do not know. It's kitschy, I guess.
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alex.jpgAlex - From now on, that's how you drive
05/05/2008 @ 12:07:57 AM
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Jeremy Wrote - 05/03/2008 @ 01:23:57 PM
I always find it peculiar that the most tension and biggest religious wars, at least in modern times, are between 3 fairly similar religions, not to mention sects of Christianity. I mean you would think they would be fighting Hindus and Buddhists or something. If I believed in my one God so much I was willing to kill people who thought differently I think I would start with the people who don't believe in him at all. Especially those religions that have many Gods. I don't think I'd start with the religions that have most of the key players that I believe in involved, but just don't interpret God's word in exactly the same manner.

Familiarity breeds contempt. Also, it's a key point that these wars didn't start in modern times, they've been going on for thousands of years.
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alex.jpgAlex - 2058 Posts
05/05/2008 @ 12:28:39 AM
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bozz_2006 Wrote - 05/03/2008 @ 11:03:34 AM
and Jeremy, in your article you said, "he sent his only son, Jesus, to Earth so he could die for the sins of the world." That isn't exactly accurate either. Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. He was true God, 100% and true man, 100%. He did not come to earth to die. He came to earth to offer humans the free gift of salvation. God gave the law to Moses, and it became apparent that humans would never live up to it. Jesus came to put an end to the law. Being humans, we LOVE having measuring sticks. We used the law to measure ourselves against others, saying "I am more righteous than he". That was not the intent of the law. Out of love for us, God came down to earth to save us by putting an end to the law, and redeeming us all through God's grace. We didn't want to hear that, so we killed God. (and if Jesus came back, we'd kill him again). But God's love is SO great, that killing God wasn't even enough to stop him from reaching us in love. He overcame death himself, and overcame death for us all, once and for all. Christ was put to death under the law and raised in righteousness. Paul says, in Romans 6, "We have been buried with Christ by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life." In Christ, our sinful selves have been put to death and we are truly a new creation, in love.


I'm going to have say it's more a mix of those comments. In order to give salvation and "end" the law, Jesus had to first fulfill the law and then die as payment for everyone else's failure to keep the law. So He did come to earth to die because it was the only way to win salvation for man (Jesus prays in Gethsemane asking the Father if there is any other way, but agreeing to go through with it if not. Matthew 26:38-42). I say "end" the law because there is still a law that applies, but instead of relying on my own efforts to keep that law well enough so that maybe God will let me into heaven (which is impossible) I instead put my faith in Jesus having already won salvation for me and offering it freely to me out of grace and love. Here's a good passage on this topic, Matthew 5:17-20 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."
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alex.jpgAlex - From now on, that's how you drive
05/05/2008 @ 12:45:56 AM
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Most churches in my synod say the Nicene creed on Communion Sundays, the "And I believe in one holy Christian and apostolic Church" style. I imagine that at some point it was changed just to lessen any confusion between "catholic" and "Catholic".
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alex.jpgAlex - 2058 Posts
05/05/2008 @ 12:51:50 AM
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Carlos44ec Wrote - 05/02/2008 @ 11:04:01 PM
Jon- just a blerb on the "same God" thing- they all believe in the god of Abraham, and follow the same God from the first five books of the Old Testament, aka the Torah, Pentateuch, [GenExLevNumbDeut] Basically, this is as accurate as any other statement Jerm makes.


I would say they all think that the god that they believe in was the God of Abraham, because the religions are similar compared to some other religions, but they really are quite different in the details and therefore they probably don't actually all believe in the same God that Abraham did. In other words, it may be possible to trace the history of each religion back to that point, but that doesn't mean they believe in the same god now.
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alex.jpgAlex - 2058 Posts
05/05/2008 @ 12:54:57 AM
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Jon Wrote - 05/02/2008 @ 10:31:14 PM
The second thing I wanted to bring up was where you wrote: "After being betrayed by a disciple Jesus was crucified, he then went to heaven..." If you're going to summarize the Christian beliefs you should really have mentioned Jesus' resurrection days after he was crucified.

Indeed.
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alex.jpgAlex - 2058 Posts
05/05/2008 @ 01:11:51 AM
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Interesting in that you picked the flood to rip on. I'm not going to try and say that I can explain anything more than what the Bible says because I can't, but there was a recent story on a DNA study that could possibly be related to the flood. The dates are different than what Bible believers generally think, but since humans have been studying DNA for like 20 years (has it even been that long?) their margin of error in gross extrapulation is potentially pretty high. Plus if you believe the Bible, there's probably been some changes in the basic laws of nature since humans used to live to be 900 years old.
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Alex edited this at 05/05/2008 1:12:27 am
gary.jpgPackOne - She's just a woman. Never again.
05/05/2008 @ 09:05:51 AM
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Maybe asking the preacher that just joined this weekend might be a good idea.
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 5014 Posts
05/05/2008 @ 09:55:21 AM
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The DNA evidence, even if it's error prone, (which is a whole argument onto itself) is one of many breakthroughs that could have completely falsified the theory of evolution, instead it tied into what we already thought, making it much more plausible it was onto something, and taught us stuff we didn't know before. It could have turned evolution on it's head, instead it confirmed it in great detail. Part of the problem is that creationists are working backwards with things that HAVE to be true. So they look for things that could explain the results they already know. (You can pretty much find SOME evidence to corroborate any belief.) Science lets the evidence lead to the explanation that best ties all the disparate facts together. The notion that evolution is just as dogmatic a belief that takes just as much "faith" to "believe in" as religion is silly. I don't have "faith" in evolution any more than I have "faith" that if I jump up in the air I'm going to come back down to Earth.

No one is disputing extinction level events never happened. Life has been all but wiped out multiple times. Leaving 2000 humans 70,000 years ago is a bit different than leaving 8 4,000 years ago, no matter how long they lived. (There's no evidence for the claim "the laws of nature were