Look, There's Some Middle Ground Here, People

07/07/2007
He's a hard man to get a read on.
See? They are mind boggling huge.
A photograph of the earth, as currently seen from space.
Inspired by this comment I made (which one reviewer called "maybe the most relevant political comment on NutCan to date.") I decided to write an article on why everything doesn't have to be so black and white. Both sides of an issue argue the slippery slope "If we budge and inch, the other side will take a mile" argument and nothing ever happens. At what point did society completely lose it's ability to compromise on anything?

Abortion

The "classic" hot button issue. My personal feelings on it are as layered and complicated. I lean to the side that says, "It doesn't affect me, I don't have to live with myself after doing it, so if you think the child's life will be absolutely unlivable, then I guess it's your call." Ultimately though, I just lie in the "never say never" camp. If abortion laws changed to be severely locked down, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. It's just hard to fit that on a bumper sticker.

I just want the ability to make the call, or have the doctor be able to decide, that my wife Sarah's life is in danger if something isn't done about it. I mean shouldn't that be what "choose life" is about? I don't want to see a law where we have to bullheadedly charge into a situation where Sarah has a 15% chance to survive and the baby, in turn, has even less of a chance. I want the option to choose Sarah at 95% and baby at zero. It just makes sense. The biggest argument against the "mother in danger loophole" is that of course doctors across the land would automatically start declaring pregnant women with a cold "in danger." This argument is preposterously ridiculous. Of course their COULD be unscrupulous doctors but it would be dealt with the same way doctors who abuse handing out prescriptions.

No issue is argued more black and white in America than abortion, and no issue I can think of has more gray area.

Girl A - 14 years old, 70 pounds, raped by her father 2 weeks ago, currently residing in a halfway house, battling crack addiction, would almost certainly die if pregnancy is carried to term, and the baby would have severe birth defects, if it survived at all.

Girl B - 28 years old, healthy, well off, carrying her devoted husband's perfectly healthy baby, hours away from going into labor.

I don't care if you are the biggest right wing, born again, abortion clinic bombing, nutcan; or the biggest left wing nazi feminist. You can not tell me that those two girls are in the exact same situation. You can not tell me they should be covered under the same "No abortions for anyone, under any circumstances" laws. Likewise you would have to concede that there should be some line, somewhere, that unless superseded (like by health complications), abortion is no longer an option for you. There has to be a place we can put that line that would appease 90% of the population, don't you think? We're never going to get anywhere if the people we're aiming to please are the abortion clinic bombers and the people who think a woman should be able to change her mind right up until the umbilical cord is cut.

Clearly the answer is abortions for some, miniature American flags for others.

Gay Marriage

This is one of those issues where I can't fathom how there is even a debate surrounding it. In a land where Church and State are supposed to be separate there are virtually no non religious reasons out there to not allow it. Any non-religious arguments are generally cherry picked statistics from religious groups attempting to make a secular argument. I guess they apply the same cherry picking skills that allows them to dislike homosexuals because the Bible says God is against them, but conveniently gloss over the "Judge not, that you be not judged," and the numerous "love everyone, even (and especially) your enemies" passages.

At any rate here's the thing, and where we can meet in the middle. It's true that some gay couples want the recognition of their marriage because they think they should be the same. However many just want the practicalities of being married. They want to share insurances and the like. I really don't think that is so much to ask.

Churches are private organizations. They should/could/do exercise their right to marry or not marry anyone. The priest that performed Sarah and My wedding could have told us to take a hike for any reason, or no reason. I don't think anyone is arguing that Churches across the land should be forced to marry gay people. If someone is arguing that they are way off base. These would be legal in the eyes of the government, not in the eyes of God.

I guess I really don't understand why 2 people that have been together 20 years can't be on the same health insurance, but a guy and a girl who met yesterday, don't know each others names, and don't live on the same sides of the country, can, if they get married. Perhaps the solution is to allow any two people to legally declare each other "roommates," for the "paperwork" benefits.

The "Amnesty" Bill

Admittedly I don't know a whole lot about this bill. The only coverage of it I've seen is Lou Dobbs, and something in the back of my mind makes me think I'm not getting both sides of the issue. It's subtle maybe, but something told me he was leaning to the "against" side.

Again, I don't know a lot, but here's what I'll say. I think the bill errs on the side of "let's just not be naive." I mean, what good would it do to pass a bill saying they all had to go? That's already the law. If the illegals weren't given some incentive to out themselves, why would they?

Also, as far as the "we should keep them out at all costs, 'They turk urrr jurrrbss'," people, I have this to say:

People are clever, no matter what you did to keep out a populace given sufficient time and motivation to get in, it wouldn't be good enough. ANY border locking down to help drive down the number of illegal immigrants would have to be accompanied by a massive "unlocking" of the legal path to citizenship to have a snowball's chance in hell of being effective.

I do understand where the bill falls short, namely by rewarding people who did the wrong thing to begin with. However, I think the bill is also a way of saying, "They are already here, they are going to stay no matter what we do, and they are going to keep coming. We need to get these people on the books and in the system."

In an ideal world, this bill wouldn't need to happen, I do however, from the admittedly little I know about it, think it's a realistic assessment of what few options we really have in the matter.

Microsoft

Ok now perhaps this is a little out there, and shoehorned into this article, but live with it - I'm sick of all the Microsoft hatred out there. It's reached the irrational point. It's reached hate for the sake of hate. Microsoft isn't my favorite, but I think the anti group has become a little too out of control.

First of all Microsoft is hardly an "evil empire." Bill Gates gives away money like he can't give it away fast enough.

Microsoft code is "buggy", "vulnerable to hackers," etc.
If your computer is on the internet it is vulnerable. Your mac is vulnerable, your linux machine is vulnerable, and us Firefox users are vulnerable. The reason you hear about exploits against Microsoft products are because:
1) Why write an exploit that will affect like 3% of the population when you can affect almost everyone? (Microsoft is the US and hackers are the illegal immigrants. They are too clever and too determined to get in to hold them off.)
2) Because every Microsoft shortcoming that is found due to the world gunning for them (See #1) is then discussed ad nauseam by all the haters (Hurrrr, I used a $ for the S, aren't I just the epitome of cleverness), creating new haters and spiraling ever downwards.

Internet Explorer doesn't follow the standards
Ok, now in the interest of full disclosure, IE is the bane of my existence. I can't stand it. IE sucks when it comes to implementing the WC3 standards, I don't think you'll find much of a debate there. However, as good as theoretical standards are, if 90-95% of web browsing is done in IE, doesn't that make how IE renders it the "standard?"

It is indeed frustrating to have a website look perfect, and as expected, in Firefox, only to check your page in IE and wonder (sometimes with out-loud expletives) how it rendered what you told it to do into that. However, sometimes I wish the browsers just rendered the same, even if that meant Firefox took a step backwards on the standards, so you didn't have to come up with lame hacks to get your site to work in both.

BETA was widely considered to be a superior product to Video Cassettes, but in the end everyone was better off and life was that much easier because we "chose a standard." Even if that meant everyone lined up behind the inferior VCRs. When it comes to the browser market sometimes I feel like the market has spoken but us nerds just refuse to let go of our "Beta" because the "VCR" doesn't work with a completely arbitrary list of features some other nerds pulled out of thin air. If 95% of cars used one part and 5% used another would a mechanic ever have the gall to call the one that's used 5% of the time the "standard" part?

It's just humorous to me how many people, myself included, plug our ears and go "la la la la" and plow forward with these Utopian standards and then 'blame' the IE users for using an 'inferior product' when the site looks like crap - to 95% of the internet. Any time it comes down to choosing between needing to break standards to make something look perfect in IE, and sometimes maybe less perfect in Firefox, we say "screw those IE n00bs, rabble standards!, rabble WC3 rabble rabble! What other industry would put up a fuss about needing to do something fairly insignificant to cater to 95% of their clients?

The Monopoly Argument

Windows comes on almost every machine purchased.
What's your point? So the market has spoken. People do have other options. THEY just aren't choosing to take them. If there was something fundamentally non functional about Windows people would have moved on.

Windows comes with a lot of software. This hurts competition because no one will pay for, say WinZip, now that Windows handles zip files natively
Fair enough. However, what other industry would we argue so fervently for LESS to be built into a product for the same price. Imagine the business auto makers are taking from the after market stereo companies by having the audacity to include a sound system right off the line!

Microsoft has even been accused of actually crippling competitors' software in the past.
Well, first of all, again there was no gun to the customers head when they chose windows in the first place. Given that, couldn't one argue it's within Microsoft's right to disallow, or allow, whatever they want? You can't just toss whatever car part you want into your Dodge, you need to use Dodge's parts. (Mopar? Anyone? Mopar?)

It's time to tone down the irrational hatred. No, they aren't a perfect corporation. However, the fact that Microsoft is still releasing updates for software you bought 4 years ago should be considered a good thing, not a sign of the end times. Anyone who has any experience doing any significant programming will tell you no software is every really done, or as perfect as it can be.

Global Warming

Anytime I hear someone debating whether or not global warming exists I always come back to the same thought. Does it matter at all? Most of the things that Global Warming advocates want put in place are things that should be done regardless of their benefit to the planet, because said benefit is one of many long term and short term benefits. Doing a cost-benefit analysis with the environment may make you look like a bastard, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. At the same time, the argument "We should make no changes to the status quo if Global Warming doesn't exist" doesn't make sense either.

Should we cripple our automakers with outrageous emissions and fuel economy standards? No. That would just drive the price of cars up, and hurt the 'little people'. Is it unreasonable to set our emission standards at or above what other countries set theirs at 20 years ago? No, it isn't.

Is there any reason to not replace every light bulb you can with a more efficient version? Sure, they cost more today, but they pay for themselves in a few months and you don't have to worry about them for years. I think it's funny that people, in their minds, assign energy usage importance in order of the "importance" of the appliance. The appliances are energy efficient, so that's all that matters. Meanwhile most of the country is still lighting their homes with what is, in essence, an open short producing as much heat as it does light.

We now find ourselves at the Tree Huggers' least favorite two words: Nuclear Power. Despite the battle cries of Chernobyl and Three Mile Island (which by the way led to zero deaths or injuries) nuclear power is our safest, and yes, cleanest, option. There is no green ooze to hide. "Toxic Waste" is actually little gray pellets. Those pellets are transported in drums that might themselves be able to survive a nuclear attack. If a drum was spilled en route to being stored you know what you do? You just pick the damn pellets up. Oh, Jeremy you mean they quarantine the tristate area while a Hazmat team comes in. Then the area is rendered unlivable for 30 years, right? No. While I'm sure suits would be worn for precautionary sake, the pellets really aren't that dangerous. (Unless you plan on filling your pillow with them for a week.) Besides, once the waste storage facility at Yucca Mountain is done the idea of toxic waste is moot. We could just as well consider it gone forever. This hasn't, however, stopped people from protesting nuclear power, and the facility at Yucca mountain. One of the talking points against nuclear is how unsafe the plants are, but thanks to their protesting all our Nuclear plants are from the 70's. They are also likely being more overworked than they would need to be, if state of the art plants were allowed to open.

I think what bugs me most about the anti-nuclear people is that they don't have any solutions of their own. Coal? Oil? The closest they can get is solar and wind energy, but those are far from being viable options. Besides, nothing is for free. Any energy those turbines take from the wind is just that, taken away. That has to effect something. (Not to mention the birds that are killed.) Also on a size-per-power-output basis they are horrible. First off, I think people see a field of them, without any thing to scale off of, and don't take their sizes into account. The things are freaking huge and the footprint to make any real power out of them is as well.

There has to be some compromise out there, regardless of your opinion on global warming. Lowering your "carbon footprint" can save you money. Lessening our dependence on Middle Eastern oil is important. Whether or not global warming will soon kill us all, or is a complete myth.

In Conclusion

Hopefully I accomplished my goal of reminding everyone that compromises are necessary in everything, even the hot button issues. Nothing is as black and white as some people make it out to be. Perhaps though there are, in fact, a lot of people in the gray area. Maybe the problem is you only get a voice if you reside in East/West Crazy Town.

Maybe, almost by definition, living in the gray means lacking the strong convictions the two fringes have on the same issue. As such, maybe then it just seems like there is no one left defending reason because no one can hear us in our "Who ever yells the loudest, or has the catchiest slogan, wins" society.
jon.jpgJon - 1790 Posts
07/07/2007 @ 03:10:01 AM
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A few quotes and what my nitpicking mind thinks of them:

"First of all Microsoft is hardly an "evil empire." Bill Gates gives away money like he can't give it away fast enough."

Those may very well be two truthful statements, but the latter doesn't make the former necessarily true. I think being generous is great, especially if you're actually helping people. But what about ill-gotten gain? I'm not putting forth the idea that Microsoft's wealth or Gates' is from (or not from) immoral means, but if it was, I'm not so sure that fact would just be absolved by their generosity.


"BETA was widely considered to be a superior product to Video Cassettes, but in the end everyone was better off and life was that much easier because we 'chose a standard.'"

Maybe I'm grasping at straws here, but I find the statement "everyone was better off" a bit hard to prove. I mean, sure there was some convenience added but maybe I would have gotten a better experience from beta. They could have been like coke and pepsi. Do you want a one soda world jeremy? (I know this may not be relevant to your overall point about ie but, still, I'm red flagging it.)


"The reason you hear about exploits against Microsoft products are because:
1) Why write an exploit that will affect like 3% of the population when you can affect almost everyone"


Even so, that doesn't mean that people are wrong in thinking that, say a Mac, is less likely to be messed up by the hackers and bugs and whatnot. (forgive me if I use the wrong terminology) The non microsoft programs/machines are probably theoretically as vulnerable, but practically less targeted. And since it's the practical that people care about, it seems valid to say that those machines are "safer," in one sense at least. A person's understanding of the reason they are safer might be way off, and they should learn the difference, but it still seems like a valid item in the "plus" column for non-microsoft things and, therefore a "minus" for microsoft things.
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Jon messed with this 2 times, last at 07/09/2007 10:32:45 am
jon.jpgJon - 1790 Posts
07/07/2007 @ 04:40:33 AM
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"Is there any reason to not replace every light bulb you can with a more efficient version?"
Any reason? How about mercury?
Granted, they say the overall mercury effect is a net positive by using the bulbs, but on a smaller level, like to an individual, there is some reason to hesitate. Since you asked.

"Hopefully I accomplished my goal of reminding everyone that compromises are necessary in everything, even the hot button issues. Nothing is as black and white as some people make it out to be."
Compromises in EVERYTHING????????? NOTHING is as black and white...?????????? Pretty black and white statements, one might say.
Secondly, all across America today, children will be heard uttering, "Mommy, Jeremy said I had to compromise on everything. I guess that includes my morals and sense of self-worth. I'm off to take drugs and have unprotected sex."

(Is there a tongue in cheek emoticon?)
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Jon messed with this at 07/07/2007 4:47:03 am
newalex.jpgAlex - 3041 Posts
07/07/2007 @ 10:17:47 AM
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Jon Wrote - 07/07/2007 @ 03:10:01 AM
"The reason you hear about exploits against Microsoft products are because:
1) Why write an exploit that will effect like 3% of the population when you can effect almost everyone"


Even so, that doesn't mean that people are wrong in thinking that, say a Mac, is less likely to be messed up by the hackers and bugs and whatnot. (forgive me if I use the wrong terminology) The non microsoft programs/machines are probably theoretically as vulnerable, but practically less targeted. And since it's the practical that people care about, it seems valid to say that those machines are "safer," in one sense at least. A person's understanding of the reason they are safer might be way off, and they should learn the difference, but it still seems like a valid item in the "plus" column for non-microsoft things and, therefore a "minus" for microsoft things.


I disagree with this. Hackers probably are more likely to attack a Microsoft application. But I'm sure Microsoft accounts for this in testing plus hackers will actually help to find any holes during the beta period so that by the time you actually install an official release from Microsoft it's probably been put under a lot more fire than say a Mac and therefore should have less possible exploits remaining. And if a hacker does manage to find a new exploit there are so many Microsoft users that you're pretty much guaranteed that someone will know about it right away and Microsoft will fix it up quickly.
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gary.jpgPackOne - Sit down your rockin' the boat.
07/07/2007 @ 10:35:54 AM
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Thats a heavy article for Saturday morning. Let me get back to you on Tuesday.
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 1.21 Gigawatts!?!?
07/07/2007 @ 10:56:51 AM
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Imagine going to the video store and half the movie companies signed a deal to be released on beta only and half released on VCRs only. Think of everytime you brought a movie over to someone's house needing to check it they had a VCR or Beta player.

My point about Microsoft isn't that the other people aren't safer. Just that their altruistic reasons for thinking they're safer are a little off base. It doesn't matter what kind of alarm system you have, you're going to think it's doing an excellent job if no one ever tries to rob you. They aren't fundamentally as safe as people make them out to be, they just aren't being tested as fervently. (I'm not saying they aren't safer, but it's not like Mac and Linux have figured out some way to be hacker proof no matter what, while Microsoft bumbles along, clueless to the concept.)

Also, I think kids today could use a little "compromising" in their self worth.
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ESPO copy.jpgPackOne - Non-Creator
07/07/2007 @ 11:48:06 AM
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As I am analyzing the data for a future post, let me take the time to say this ... Rodney Peete does rule.
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reign_of_fire_150.jpgMicah - I didn't make that! It fell out of your hair that way!
07/07/2007 @ 12:30:34 PM
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Come on people the world has moved on....its time to embrace Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD as the new VHS vs. Beta.
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - I hate our freedoms
07/07/2007 @ 12:44:27 PM
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Well see, that wouldn't be AS apt an analogy since the media itself is the same (discs) so it's possible to make players that play both, like they did with DVD R and DVD-R.
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scott.jpgScott - If you aren't enough without it, you'll never be enough with it.
07/07/2007 @ 09:19:58 PM
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The truth about Microsoft is that they are just good at what they do. And in reality, we are all a little better off having such a standardized software system where ever we go. Knowing that if I save a Word file on my computer, I can open it up pretty much anywhere I go is a good thing. Can you imagine if there were as many different types of software systems like this as there are different types of cars? You would never be able to know whether you could access your information on a computer other than your own.

Also, I'm not afraid to admit that I'm a fan of Microsoft. I've used Windows all my life. So what if Microsoft has taken a few ideas here and there from other operating systems. Mazda uses steering wheels even though Ford used this device in cars first. Also, I really hate Macs. It's probably because I've used Window's all my life, but I just don't understand the elitest Apple mentality that Mac OSX is so supperior. Sure it's got some nice features that obviously make it a successful system, but I've just never been able to get used to it. And have there ever been any more useless and annoying mouse devices put out than by apple. Seriously, I've never heard anybody complain about the 2 button, scroller-in-the-middle mouse. Why does Apple need to "revolutionize" such an accepted and efficient device. Were they bored?

So to sum up. Microsoft is good for everybody. Apple, with all their innovations (some are indeed good: Ipod), still kinda sucks. Microsoft is just good at what they do. And because of that, life is a lot easier for all of us.
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - The pig says "My wife is a slut?"
07/07/2007 @ 11:18:45 PM
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Apple's one button mouse is intolerable. It's one of those things where you just wonder how pig headed a group of people can be.

Also, anyone remember the completely round iMac mice? Tiny, uncomfortable, non-ergonomic, piles of crap they were.
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newalex.jpgAlex - 3041 Posts
07/07/2007 @ 11:36:49 PM
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Agreed with previous sentiment on the one-button mouse. Not only is it intolerable, it's inexplicable.
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face.bmpCarlos44ec - 2020 Posts
07/08/2007 @ 08:38:56 AM
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Micah Wrote - 07/07/2007 @ 12:30:34 PM
Come on people the world has moved on....its time to embrace Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD as the new VHS vs. Beta.


At this point I refuse to get involved with that race. I'm going to wait it out.
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - Always thinking of, but never about, the children.
07/10/2007 @ 09:14:32 AM
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Also, since I tried to summarize in the end there but did a little too much summarizing let me add this:

I never intended to argue that a person should compromise on every little issue.

You shouldn't compromise with your 2 year old child you know categorically better than if say, they want candy for supper.

If your friend wants to go on a killing spree and you would prefer the two of you kill no one, you shouldn't go on half a spree.

I was merely addressing compromise in regards to issues that we have to decide on as a society. Issues where you're going to have good points on the left, good points on the right, crazies on both sides, and a vast array of people along the spectrum.
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Jeremy edited this at 07/10/2007 9:17:15 am
reign_of_fire_150.jpgMicah - 542 Posts
07/10/2007 @ 11:12:18 AM
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Jeremy Wrote - 07/10/2007 @ 09:14:32 AM

You shouldn't compromise with your 2 year old child you know categorically better than if say, they want candy for supper.


This is exactly why I won't compromise with anyone, because I categorically know better than everyone else in the world.
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - Always thinking of, but never about, the children.
07/10/2007 @ 11:25:09 AM
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And everyone else feels the same way about you and everyone else. Thus, the problem at hand.
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 6753 Posts
07/10/2007 @ 11:32:54 AM
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Oh, and it's Tuesday, PackOne.
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Jeremy screwed with this at 07/10/2007 11:34:22 am
vignette.bmpCarlos44ec - "The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut by the lawnmower."
07/10/2007 @ 12:56:55 PM
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no I agree, Micah's track record of being right far exceeds everyone elses. The one person I don't hate to hear say "I told you so!"
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - Super Chocolate Bear
07/10/2007 @ 01:10:24 PM
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For the record I was just answering what I assume was a tongue in cheek comment from Micah with a tongue in cheek response. I wasn't trying to start an "Is Micah, in fact, the most correct person in the world?" debate.
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Jeremy edited this 2 times, last at 07/10/2007 1:30:15 pm
face.bmpCarlos44ec - Since 1980!
07/10/2007 @ 01:27:37 PM
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emoticon

Isn't he?
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - Pie Racist
07/10/2007 @ 01:30:26 PM
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It's debatable.
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gary.jpgPackOne - 1491 Posts
07/10/2007 @ 01:39:45 PM
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Jeremy Wrote - 07/10/2007 @ 11:32:54 AM
Oh, and it's Tuesday, PackOne.


Yes, I realize it is the day everyone worldwide has been waiting for - my opinion. Strangely enough, I haven't had much to say about anything lately. My business is slowly crumbling around me, and I have been in that proverbial "funk" zone for about a week now. However, I know the world patiently awaits my sound off, so I will do what I can.

On the abortion topic - the truth of the matter is it shouldn't be an issue unless a medical emergency, or a criminal act is in the equation. I am not advocating a society without choice, but, there needs to be some universal rules put in place regarding the conception of children. I'm sick and tired of hearing about all the hungry kids, neglected kids, and kids with no shot. Can't the world realize that enough is enough. We continue to promote pregnancy with financial incentive, glorify it as manly, and present it as some right of passage to life. REGULATE IT. I understand that people want to spread their legacy on the future generations - GREAT. Have one kid. I'm guilty of it too. When we got a pet we HAD to go out and get a purebread Golden Retriever. After a short while we realized that there are hundreds of dogs in need of a good home because some dumb ass got a dog and decided they couldn't, or didn't want to care for it anymore. It's the same way with child bearing. I say everybody gets one shot at their purebread - then you have to ADOPT.

I'll respect the right to choice - I'd rather see a life ended before it began than a life wasted by stupid people who don't have the self control to think before they sink the pink.
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - Pie Racist
07/10/2007 @ 01:47:53 PM
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Horribly tactless post aside, how would you propose to regulate it? Outside of fines/taxes for a certain number of kids there's no real way, and all that would do is take money from the people who need it the most.

(Full disclosure: I've often said that we should regulate it too, but in more of a "wouldn't that be ideal" way then you seem to be saying.)

Also, I totally thought you were going one way with it, then it came flying back in the exact opposite direction at the end there.
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ESPO copy.jpgPackOne - Make my own decisions. That's my perogative.
07/10/2007 @ 02:02:07 PM
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Tactless? How about reality. Make people get a license for more than one child - and make it EXPENSIVE. This way those without without the means to support a gazillion kids can't afford the license either. I know it's unrealistic, but so is trying to solve the problems we already have. Everyone gets one shot, and if you do well you are rewarded with the opportunity of raising another child. Until children are viewed as an opportunity in this society no change will take place.

Maybe my real issue is with adoption - it seems that too many uncaring parents are getting away with bringing children into the world. My biological parents were freshman in college when they had me. They were wise enough to realize that maybe I would have a better life in the hands of someone more able to raise me than themselves.

I don't believe in hurting any creature in any way. With this outlook I really tow the line on abortion. However, I do think the issue of abortion would be far less of a hot button topic if the issue of neglect and poor planning was not so out of control.
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face.bmpCarlos44ec - 2020 Posts
07/10/2007 @ 02:08:39 PM
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The chinese regulate it through fear and punishment. They could only have 2 kids, so parents would go out and burry baby girls alive so they could try again to have a boy to carry on family legacy. (THis may not be done now, but I assure you it was in the last century)
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gary.jpgPackOne - If you got a problem ... yo i'll solve it.
07/10/2007 @ 02:13:57 PM
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I am well aware of that - and I don't deny regulation may leave us with a whole new set of problems. Once again though, de-regulation may just be the death of society as well.
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - The pig says "My wife is a slut?"
07/10/2007 @ 02:16:49 PM
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And then if someone doesn't buy the license what then? An even more expensive fine they can't afford? Take all their money and then a year later give them foodstamps cause they're broke?

Also I still have no idea where you stand on abortion, you seem way way to one side then two sentences later you seem way way to the other side.

Also2, I think it's fair to call any post that ends with "sink the pink" tactless. emoticon
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gary.jpgPackOne - Take your shirt off, twist it 'round yo' hand...spin it like a helicopter.
07/10/2007 @ 02:23:39 PM
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What is tactless is not thinking about the pink before sinking it. I'm just calling it like I see it. I think reducing the act to a phrase out of a porno is the equivelant to someone not thinking twice before tinkering with pregnancy. I revert back to your thread topic - of being some middle ground. I personally would not consider abortion as an option. For those who have proven they cannot control themselves I think adoption or abortion should be mandatory.
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gary.jpgPackOne - 1491 Posts
07/10/2007 @ 02:26:31 PM
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On the next topic it's real black and white for me. Let the gays marry. Let em raise kids too. God knows they can't do any worse than those couples before them.
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 6753 Posts
07/10/2007 @ 02:27:48 PM
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I called the post tactless, not a crime against humanity, take a chill pill. emoticon
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gary.jpgPackOne - It's a sin that somehow, light is changing to shadow.
07/10/2007 @ 02:32:27 PM
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Jeremy Wrote - 07/10/2007 @ 02:27:48 PM
I called the post tactless, not a crime against humanity, take a chill pill. emoticon


I'm not burning up. emoticon Just stating my own NPD induced opinion. Unfortunately, at this stage of my life, the only real change I will personally be taking on any of these topics is my words on nutcan.com. I look at most of the world with a defeatist attitude at this point.
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vignette.bmpCarlos44ec - 2020 Posts
07/10/2007 @ 02:36:57 PM
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emoticon

"I weep for the future"
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Carlos44ec messed with this at 07/10/2007 2:37:10 pm
gary.jpgPackOne - Non-Creator
07/10/2007 @ 02:39:56 PM
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You will be glad to know I plan on remaining childless. Good thing for the future. Better thing for any kid that would have me as a parent.
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ESPO copy.jpgPackOne - 1491 Posts
07/10/2007 @ 02:47:35 PM
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Amnesty bill. If you have enough moxy to risk getting arrested, living on the street, and leaving your family in the pursuit of a better life, go ahead and stay. I'll even go a step further and say you should be required to find a worthless crack dealer and send him back to where you just came from.
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ESPO copy.jpgPackOne - 1491 Posts
07/10/2007 @ 02:58:18 PM
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Microsoft. My PC's have always been fine for me. I grew up programming BASIC on an Apple IIc. Since that time I have never programmed anything - so I can't comment on the specifics. The only real comment I have on Microsoft is the weird comment someone once told me. They said that if Bill Gates saw a hundred dollar bill on the ground he would lose more money in the time it took to pick it up - than to just keep walking. I always found that strange. If I could get this to be the case for me with even a dollar - I'd be fricking happy as a nutcanner on Hannity and Combs.
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PackOne edited this at 07/10/2007 2:59:59 pm
ESPO copy.jpgPackOne - 1491 Posts
07/10/2007 @ 02:58:58 PM
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Global warming. Like I eluded to previously - we are screwed.
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newalex.jpgAlex - I pooped in my bed so I put in on the TV
07/10/2007 @ 07:41:35 PM
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This country needs less regulation not more. It's getting to the point that the freedom we excercise the most is the freedom to make more laws telling us what we can and can't do. Quotas or licenses for having children is no good.
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Alex messed with this at 07/10/2007 7:48:43 pm
newalex.jpgAlex - I pooped in my bed so I put in on the TV
07/10/2007 @ 08:10:14 PM
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Relating to the gay marriage issue how to you define separation of church and state in relation to separation of religion and morality? I'm sure there are lots of other laws that are based purely on "moral" issues which in many cases could be considered to have originated from religious beliefs. Is there some list of issues that separates morals from religion?

Also both of your Bible quotes are horribly misapplied. "Judge not, that you be not judged," doesn't mean that you can't have laws in a society and enforce them. It means something more like don't think you're all high and mighty and go around pointing out everyone else's faults, because you sin just as much as anyone else. And I'm not even sure where you're going with the "love everyone, even (and especially) your enemies" example. Love everyone = let people do whatever they want? Is that how parents should love their children? Wouldn't it be more loving and caring to try and show others the errors of their ways and bring them the message of salvation?
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scott.jpgScott - 3990 Posts
07/10/2007 @ 09:10:41 PM
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Inside of a marriage there should be no controversy whatsoever. I am married. Any kids I have will be well within what I should expect. Even if I only wanted 2 or 3, but end up with 6 is just something I will deal with and enjoy all the while.

The problem is stupid idiots who have one night stands, or knock up their girl friends, or get knocked up by their boyfriends, or whatever reason, and claim an "accidental pregnancy", and because of that claim it as their right to end the life a heart thumping human being that eats, sleeps, and kicks around inside of the mother. The ONLY reason for choice would be in the case of a medical threat to the mother, or incest, possibly rape, and a small number of other exceptions. People need to learn to accept the consequences of their actions. If you have sex with anyone, that is your freedom of choice. If that choice leads to a pregnancy, you are out of luck. (Actually, you are blessed, because being able to bring a child into this world is a beautiful thing.) You already excercised your freedom of choice. This is a horrible society if you can be put in jail for killing the eggs of a bald eagle, but you supported for making the decision to kill an unborn child. That's my 2 cents, and I don't see much room for compromise. I'm going to err on the side of not killing a human (with the few said exceptions) (oh, and I'm a moderate/liberal, I'm against the war, and whatnot).
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scott.jpgScott - Ma'am, can you make sure your computer is turned on?
07/10/2007 @ 09:22:54 PM
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"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"

This is the complete verse in question (actually, it's 3 verses for context). Basically, don't pass a judgement on someone when you are doing the same thing or worse. Jesus said to fix the problems in your own life and stop being the accuser, or people will start doing (and rightly so) the same thing to you. It doesn't mean let someone who's making destructive decisions keep making those decisions. But there is a point when you stop and realize that you aren't going to change everyone.
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hoochpage.JPGSarah - So's your face
07/10/2007 @ 09:25:44 PM
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I'm not going to disagree with your reasons for abortions (which I don't agree with) but I will disagree with you about your other point. Some people who accidentally have kids are not "blessed" and maybe should give those kids up for adoption because some of those kids are going to end up having a crummy life. Not all of them, because some people end up making it work, but some people end up making their kids lives miserable and it's a shame. Kids should have equal opportunities to succeed, and there are tons of people out there who want kids who aren't fortunate to have their own. Plus, chances are that those people who accidentally have kids in said situations are just going to be burdens on society.
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - Always thinking of, but never about, the children.
07/10/2007 @ 11:24:40 PM
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Alex Wrote - 07/10/2007 @ 08:10:14 PM
Relating to the gay marriage issue how to you define separation of church and state in relation to separation of religion and morality? I'm sure there are lots of other laws that are based purely on "moral" issues which in many cases could be considered to have originated from religious beliefs. Is there some list of issues that separates morals from religion?

Well see, there's your problem, it's your religious beliefs that lead you do rule it as a moral issue in the first place. I, and many others, don't see homosexuality as immoral to begin with, so I don't see it as a moral issue.

Edit: It's true that many of our broader laws have roots in religion (the 10 commandments in particular) but I'm pretty sure even the most secular person could sign off on those broad topics. I have to imagine as a society we would have come up with "we shouldn't kill and rob each other" on our own. The issue at hand is the specific details. The things that society doesn't have a problem with, but some people do "because the Bible says so." It's likely a person who is a Christian and against homosexuality wouldn't feel they way they do if they weren't Christian. They would still think murder is bad.

I'm also not saying a person can't feel the way they want to feel, I just don't want Christians forcing anti-gay laws into the halls of an establishment that is supposed to take a step back from religion.
Alex Wrote - 07/10/2007 @ 08:10:14 PM

Also both of your Bible quotes are horribly misapplied. "Judge not, that you be not judged," doesn't mean that you can't have laws in a society and enforce them. It means something more like don't think you're all high and mighty and go around pointing out everyone else's faults, because you sin just as much as anyone else. And I'm not even sure where you're going with the "love everyone, even (and especially) your enemies" example. Love everyone = let people do whatever they want? Is that how parents should love their children? Wouldn't it be more loving and caring to try and show others the errors of their ways and bring them the message of salvation?


Of course you can have laws, I don't know how you even interpreted what I said into that. There are a lot of Christians who do, in fact, think they are higher and mightier than everyone else. How can you possibly say one person is immoral and not be passing judgment, or implying you are "more moral" than them? Love everyone doesn't mean everyone can do anything they want, but love everyone CERTAINLY means don't hate anyone. There is a fairly decent sized group of Christians that legitimately hate homosexuals (and not just the crazy "God Hates Fags" soldier funeral protesters, whom are in a bat shit insane category all their own.)

Scott Wrote - 07/10/2007 @ 09:10:41 PM
The problem is stupid idiots who have one night stands, or knock up their girl friends, or get knocked up by their boyfriends, or whatever reason, and claim an "accidental pregnancy", and because of that claim it as their right to end the life ...
The ONLY reason for choice would be in the case of a medical threat to the mother, or incest, possibly rape, and a small number of other exceptions. People need to learn to accept the consequences of their actions. If you have sex with anyone, that is your freedom of choice. If that choice leads to a pregnancy, you are out of luck. .... I'm going to err on the side of not killing a human (with the few said exceptions) .


This was one of those things that I went into my women's 301 class thinking "I wonder how much more liberal I'll be on this issue" (assuming I'd hear some rational arguments) Then after hearing and reading people talk about pregnancies like they were unlucky happenstance, and abortions like they were. a)An inaliable right and b) Were absolutely no big deal what so ever, I came out more against than ever.

If you choose to have sex you chose any/all ramifications of the outcome. If you were impaired and had a stupid one night stand that leads to a pregnancy, well you chose to drink that night.

Edit: In other words, I could live with the right being taken away from the people who are "just having second thoughts." If I was conceded my list of exceptions, which is more or less your list.

(There's also a lot of gray area in the subset of the Abortion argument of when it's a baby, and when it's not. But I didn't feel the need to get into that. I only bring it up since you said "a heart thumping human being that eats, sleeps, and kicks around inside of the mother" which would be later on in the term. At what point we qualify "lump of cells" from "baby" could be a separate "line" in and of itself.)

(And by the way all those "few exceptions" you listed are compromises)

Sarah Wrote - 07/10/2007 @ 09:25:44 PM
I'm not going to disagree with your reasons for abortions (which I don't agree with)


Classic.
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Jeremy messed with this 3 times, last at 07/10/2007 11:56:58 pm
2887.gifAlex - 3041 Posts
07/11/2007 @ 12:49:06 AM
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Jeremy Wrote - 07/10/2007 @ 11:24:40 PM
Well see, there's your problem, it's your religious beliefs that lead you do rule it as a moral issue in the first place. I, and many others, don't see homosexuality as immoral to begin with, so I don't see it as a moral issue.

Edit: It's true that many of our broader laws have roots in religion (the 10 commandments in particular) but I'm pretty sure even the most secular person could sign off on those broad topics. I have to imagine as a society we would have come up with "we shouldn't kill and rob each other" on our own. The issue at hand is the specific details. The things that society doesn't have a problem with, but some people do "because the Bible says so." It's likely a person who is a Christian and against homosexuality wouldn't feel they way they do if they weren't Christian. They would still think murder is bad.

I'm also not saying a person can't feel the way they want to feel, I just don't want Christians forcing anti-gay laws into the halls of an establishment that is supposed to take a step back from religion.


Firstly, you completely dodged the morality vs religion question. And secondly, if as you said there is really no good non-religious reasons to be against gay marriage, then doesn't it have to be considered a moral issue? You just happen to think that it's morally ok, but it's still basically a moral issue.

If laws are made or upheld to prevent gay marriage then isn't society saying that they do have a problem with it? Also I'm sure there are lots of non-Christians who aren't ok with gay marriage. The same thing that inherently lets people know that killing and robbing is wrong also lets them know that homosexuality is wrong too. But there are people that kill and people that rob so there will also be people who want to pratice homosexuality. So in summary, yes I 100% think homosexuality is wrong, but it's basically legal in this country which I guess I'm ok with because of freedom of religion and separation of church and state (though I wish society were less accepting of it), but marriage has always been pretty much reserved for one man and one woman since it started and if 2 guys want to live together all their lives then fine, but they shouldn't receive the same benefits because it's not the same thing.
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Alex screwed with this 2 times, last at 07/11/2007 12:50:09 am
jeremy.jpgJeremy - I hate our freedoms
07/11/2007 @ 10:00:27 AM
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I didn't think I did dodge it. Societies morals are rooted in religion, but as I said I have to imagine we would have made similar laws to some of the 10 commandments either way. I'm not philosopher enough to untangle morals and religion, but there are a lot of atheists floating around out there, and they aren't all killing and raping people.

if as you said there is really no good non-religious reasons to be against gay marriage, then doesn't it have to be considered a moral issue?

I don't follow that line of reasoning at all. You'll have to explain what you mean a bit more.

In an ideal democracy "society" would make laws, but that's not the way laws are made. Laws are made by an out of touch governing body that follows the money. There is no law being "upheld," which is why I think it's so bizarre that there's any grounds to not allow it, at least in the interim if/when a law IS made.

It reminds me of the Maurice Clarett situation. He left college early and tested the NFL's "x years out of high school" rule. ESPN had a bunch of legal minds on and asked them what they thought the outcome would be. The consensus was unanimous. The NFL's rule had been customarily followed up until then, but there are no legal grounds for it. Maurice was an able bodied adult and had to be allowed to offer his services to the 'workplace' like any other profession. They all thought it would be over the second it was ever legally challenged. Somehow that fairly basic American law was, in the end, lost in a sea of money and emotions.

I'm not going to say, and never really meant, that there is no non-religious person on the planet that thinks gay marriage is bad. However, you'd be kidding yourself to try and argue 98% percent of the blow back isn't from Christians.

You can't just say "it's not the same thing." You have to actually say why it isn't.
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Jeremy screwed with this 2 times, last at 07/11/2007 10:07:28 am
ESPO copy.jpgPackOne - The Harvard comma's #1 fan.
07/11/2007 @ 10:35:10 AM
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Scott Wrote - 07/10/2007 @ 09:10:41 PM
Inside of a marriage there should be no controversy whatsoever. I am married. Any kids I have will be well within what I should expect. Even if I only wanted 2 or 3, but end up with 6 is just something I will deal with and enjoy all the while.

The problem is stupid idiots who have one night stands, or knock up their girl friends, or get knocked up by their boyfriends, or whatever reason, and claim an "accidental pregnancy", and because of that claim it as their right to end the life a heart thumping human being that eats, sleeps, and kicks around inside of the mother. The ONLY reason for choice would be in the case of a medical threat to the mother, or incest, possibly rape, and a small number of other exceptions. People need to learn to accept the consequences of their actions. If you have sex with anyone, that is your freedom of choice. If that choice leads to a pregnancy, you are out of luck. (Actually, you are blessed, because being able to bring a child into this world is a beautiful thing.) You already excercised your freedom of choice. This is a horrible society if you can be put in jail for killing the eggs of a bald eagle, but you supported for making the decision to kill an unborn child. That's my 2 cents, and I don't see much room for compromise. I'm going to err on the side of not killing a human (with the few said exceptions) (oh, and I'm a moderate/liberal, I'm against the war, and whatnot).


Sarah Wrote - 07/10/2007 @ 09:25:44 PM
I'm not going to disagree with your reasons for abortions (which I don't agree with) but I will disagree with you about your other point. Some people who accidentally have kids are not "blessed" and maybe should give those kids up for adoption because some of those kids are going to end up having a crummy life. Not all of them, because some people end up making it work, but some people end up making their kids lives miserable and it's a shame. Kids should have equal opportunities to succeed, and there are tons of people out there who want kids who aren't fortunate to have their own. Plus, chances are that those people who accidentally have kids in said situations are just going to be burdens on society.


Two quotes I can pretty much agree with 99.9%. I think an issue that hasn't been touched on this thread is - What exactly constitutes life? Is it just a heartbeat? Is it emotional capabilitites? I am not wholly convinced that a 8 week old fetus is alive yet. When someone can definitively answer that question and prove that an unborn child is aware and feels the pain of abortion, my feelings may sway slightly.
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 6753 Posts
07/11/2007 @ 10:49:47 AM
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What I find odd is that our society seems fairly accepting of abortions, but seems to pretty wholeheartly condemn euthanasia, when that person can outright TELL you they're in too much pain, or whatever, to go on.

(Also don't read in between the lines to infer my opinion on the matter, I really don't have one yet.)
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face.bmpCarlos44ec - 2020 Posts
07/11/2007 @ 10:53:25 AM
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To respond to Jeremy's last- I personally have decided that life begins when the fetus can survive outside of the womb without assistance. I don't necessarily agree with abortion, but that's the answer I tell myself.

I, for one, have no qualms with gay marriage, gay parenting, etc. I'm not going to let the fact that I am straight stop other people from being happy (or as some say, misserable) in marriage. Let people be happy with other people.

I used to be a homophobe, but these days, when I park outside of the Minneapolis Eagle before a Twins game ($5) and a guy checks me out, I think "Hey thanks, that's a compliment" instead of "GWB-INFERNO!" from the old-days.
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Carlos44ec edited this at 07/11/2007 10:53:47 am
ESPO copy.jpgPackOne - She's just a woman. Never again.
07/11/2007 @ 11:18:53 AM
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Carlos44ec Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 10:53:25 AM
To respond to Jeremy's last- I personally have decided that life begins when the fetus can survive outside of the womb without assistance. I don't necessarily agree with abortion, but that's the answer I tell myself.

I, for one, have no qualms with gay marriage, gay parenting, etc. I'm not going to let the fact that I am straight stop other people from being happy (or as some say, misserable) in marriage. Let people be happy with other people.

I used to be a homophobe, but these days, when I park outside of the Minneapolis Eagle before a Twins game ($5) and a guy checks me out, I think "Hey thanks, that's a compliment" instead of "GWB-INFERNO!" from the old-days.


Thats a great post.
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 1.21 Gigawatts!?!?
07/11/2007 @ 12:02:42 PM
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To be fair, Carl is a beautiful man.
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jon.jpgJon - 1790 Posts
07/11/2007 @ 12:15:49 PM
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PackOne Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 10:35:10 AM

When someone can definitively answer that question and prove that an unborn child is aware and feels the pain of abortion, my feelings may sway slightly.


I'm using this quote to put out some thoughts, but this isn't really directed at PackOne or any individual as much as it's just my thoughts on the subject.

The issue of pain/awareness usually comes into the abortion argument if it goes on long enough. Personally, the more thought I've put into that particular line of thinking, the more I find it irrelevant. I know A huge, if not THE huge, sticking point on abortion is the whole definition of life and so people want to use some measure of something like pain to draw an "ok" and "not ok" line. But, to me, that can't be the line. For one, it turns the whole argument into an examination of one moment where the procedure takes place. Pain or no pain, the issue of abortion is an issue of lives and lifetimes, not one specific moment.
Also, I don't think you can use that framework (of pain or awareness) for deciding whether an action is acceptable or not. A person could come up with countless scenarios where someone might not feel an injury or be aware of something that's happening to them, yet it would be flat out wrong to go through with that action. Not even just in life and death issues. Can you steal if you're positive they won't miss it? I'm fairly sure some people think that's ok. Personally, I don't. Then obviously there are the issues of the people in comas to various degrees, dementia, etc.
Which actually leads me to my final point (at least for now). Maybe it's the same point, just differently stated, I can hardly tell. Anyway, applying these types of litmus tests of pain or no pain, etc. are basically saying that we think that we know what constitutes a fair life or a fair denial of life. And in this I mean both a biological life and what I'll just call the experiential life, meaning roughly every other aspect of living. Now, the following isn't meant to sound too "slippery slopish" but I'm sure there's that apect to it. But to me, it seems too easy for people to start applying certain criteria to deem whether or not a life, or potential life, or fetus or whatever you want to call it is protected or not. Can it feel pain? Well there are some adults who can't feel pain. It can't make decisions for itself and we're not sure it's aware; but that's not really limited to fetuses either. It doesn't really have friends or family that will grieve, yet you could say the same about a lot of adults. And I know that there are differences in these cases. And I don't know how much these arguments are being used or if they ever will be. But to me, it seems like trying to sum up something as complex as life, and all that it entails, simply based on what the person/thing is able to experience/not experience or comprehend/not comprehend is a task we shouldn't be so eager to take on. I'm not so sure we're as equipped as we might think we are.

And just in case you're wondering, I don't say all this as someone who thinks I've nailed down the exact procedures for dealing with the huge spectrum of issues involving life and death. But I hope to have at least put some good ideas out there.
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Jon screwed with this at 07/11/2007 12:22:16 pm
face.bmpCarlos44ec - 2020 Posts
07/11/2007 @ 12:24:10 PM
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Good points for Jon

And Jeremy, I forgot all about the beautiful man thing. Where'd that come from again??? I think I remember where, but not sure.

EDIT- FYI, the guy told Nicci I was "a cutie" hence, Bill named his ferret Cutie. If that's what YOU were thinking.
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Carlos44ec edited this at 07/11/2007 12:25:30 pm
ESPO copy.jpgPackOne - Well you can get this lapdance here for free.
07/11/2007 @ 12:36:35 PM
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Good points Jon. I agree it brings up a whole different set of issues. It also brings up a species point as well. Is it okay to destroy a hornets nest because you want a garden there? Does the moral issue only involve the human species?
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 1.21 Gigawatts!?!?
07/11/2007 @ 12:41:05 PM
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Carlos44ec Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 12:24:10 PM
And Jeremy, I forgot all about the beautiful man thing. Where'd that come from again??? I think I remember where, but not sure.

EDIT- FYI, the guy told Nicci I was "a cutie" hence, Bill named his ferret Cutie. If that's what YOU were thinking.

I don't think it is from anything (or at least I didn't mean it to be), I was just putting that fact out there.
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Jeremy messed with this at 07/11/2007 12:41:26 pm
reign_of_fire_150.jpgMicah - 542 Posts
07/11/2007 @ 12:50:28 PM
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Alex Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 12:49:06 AM
So in summary, yes I 100% think homosexuality is wrong, but it's basically legal in this country which I guess I'm ok with because of freedom of religion and separation of church and state (though I wish society were less accepting of it), but marriage has always been pretty much reserved for one man and one woman since it started and if 2 guys want to live together all their lives then fine, but they shouldn't receive the same benefits because it's not the same thing.


Wow that's probably the first instance I've seen of outright bigotry on this site....hope you already picked up your hood and robe for the rally.
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Micah perfected this at 07/11/2007 12:51:42 pm
fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - Robots don't say 'ye'
07/11/2007 @ 01:01:51 PM
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Also, just to add to the pain relevant/irrelevant argument, but play devils advocate a bit. Should that be the cut off of whether or not something should happen anyway? Couldn't you argue 2 seconds of pain to save 20 years of pain is the more humane thing to do?

The fact that we have brought up so many caveats just goes to show how much gray area there is. Should a girl who is in no position to have a baby have to have her life ruined and live in near poverty, in turn giving her baby a bad shot at life, rather than going on to be a success and get married and have 3 kids? On the other hand, assuming she chose to have sex, shouldn't she have to deal with the consequences of that? Which is better? A society full of drains on the system, or a consequence free society?

This is why I remain in the "just never say never" camp. Draw all the lines you want, but you have to allow some loop holes.

It's the same reason mandatory sentencing doesn't work. People draw up these hard and fast laws and then later on someone in a situation the lawmakers never contemplated will technically violate a law that was clearly never indented for people in that situation.

Micah Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 12:50:28 PM
Wow that's probably the first instance I've seen of outright bigotry on this site....hope you already picked up your hood and robe for the rally.

Homosexuality is sort of the last thing you're "allowed" to be so openly against. Like 50% of the population would consider that a perfectly valid statement. Then there are some who would see it almost as saying "I think being black is 100% wrong." I'm not sure where I fall along the spectrum. As of right now we're leaning toward homosexuality as a choice, so in that sense it's "ok" to be on the opposite side of the choice. However research seems to be headed down the "it isn't even a choice to begin with" road, so I may have to reevaluate that.

Edit: I made the comment before you added your "hood and robe" comment, so clearly you fall in the "Then there are some" category. I really don't think it is the same thing though. We're potentially talking about things you chose to be and things you just are, which are different situations. Also, he said he thinks homosexuality is wrong, not that he drives around at night looking for gay people to hang.

Edit2: This is all regarding my feelings on whether or not I consider it being bigotry, not how I feel about homosexuality, which I'm fine with. (Though it does give me the creeps.)
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Jeremy messed with this 4 times, last at 07/11/2007 1:23:57 pm
vignette.bmpCarlos44ec - Since 1980!
07/11/2007 @ 01:02:36 PM
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take a look at that
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Carlos44ec screwed with this 3 times, last at 07/11/2007 1:03:21 pm
jon.jpgJon - 1790 Posts
07/11/2007 @ 01:32:02 PM
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Jeremy Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 01:01:51 PM
Also, just to add to the pain relevant/irrelevant argument, but play devils advocate a bit. Should that be the cut off of whether or not something should happen anyway? Couldn't you argue 2 seconds of pain to save 20 years of pain is the more humane thing to do?


In regard to what? How certain are you of said pain?

And since it's been brought up, people talk about how if some girl has a baby it will ruin her life and the kid's. And no doubt, it creates tons of problems in many peoples' lives. You don't need to sell me on how teen pregnancy is a problem and how it can compound. It does create really rough situations. But again, if we start to place ourselves as the judge of "this fetus's life wouldn't be worth living," we're delusional in our estimation of our knowledge of the future and in our estimation of what the value of a life is.

And as for the problems it creates for the mother, we've already spoken of adoption. And I know, in some people's minds I'm not allowed to even suggest such a thing since I'm a male and I haven't been in the situation, but I'll stick by it. Will it be a sacrifice? Of course. I'm humbled by the thought of even being in a situation like that myself. But we can't let the fact that it's hard outweigh the fact that at the very least there is potential for an actual human life.
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Jon screwed with this at 07/11/2007 1:33:26 pm
gary.jpgPackOne - 1491 Posts
07/11/2007 @ 01:34:38 PM
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I'm a male and an adoptee. I'd like to speak face to face with whoever suggests that a male can't talk about adoption.
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 6753 Posts
07/11/2007 @ 01:44:09 PM
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PackOne Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 01:34:38 PM
I'm a male and an adoptee. I'd like to speak face to face with whoever suggests that a male can't talk about adoption.

I think Jon just meant a male can't have an opinion on abortion without potentially just looking like a misogynistic ass like a white guy can't have a contrary opinion to reparations without just looking like a racist.

As for Jon's reply to me: (and I'm aware you we're necessarily condemning me)

I was just putting the idea out there, not necessarily stating how I felt about anything.
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ESPO copy.jpgPackOne - 1491 Posts
07/11/2007 @ 01:56:05 PM
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See that whole male opinion thing is BS to me. The whole process of adoption is equally painful for both parents providing that they care in the first place. I think this point is valid regardless of the relationship status as well.
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - Super Chocolate Bear
07/11/2007 @ 02:02:29 PM
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Though I guess to address it a little more: (and again just to present the a different side, not necessarily state my opinion)

Jon Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 01:32:02 PM
And as for the problems it creates for the mother, we've already spoken of adoption. And I know, in some people's minds I'm not allowed to even suggest such a thing since I'm a male and I haven't been in the situation, but I'll stick by it. Will it be a sacrifice? Of course. I'm humbled by the thought of even being in a situation like that myself. But we can't let the fact that it's hard outweigh the fact that at the very least there is potential for an actual human life.


Even with adoption there is a potential for the very act of carrying the child to term causing harm to the mothers future. She could have to drop out of school, miss out on jobs because they don't want to hire someone who is pregnant, etc. Either way you are also talking about ruining an existing established life, or terminating something that is, at the moment, arguably not human, and in many ways no more a separate entity from the mother herself than you could consider her pancreas.

It's one of the big reasons it's such a feminist issue. Sure a couple chooses to have sex, but if the girl gets knocked up then guy also has the option of saying, screw this I want nothing to do with you (except potentially have to send checks once in a while, a year and a half down the road) The guy's life doesn't really have to be affected at all, if he chooses. Women think they should have an analogous "screw this, I want out choice." You're placing the consequences of two people's choice into one persons lap.

Also to clarify my point clarifying a point JON thinks guys can have an opinion, it's just many people don't think we should get one. (Try arguing in a Women's Studies course that a husband should have even a 1% say in whether or not his wife keeps a baby of theirs, as I once tried to do, if you doubt me.)
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Jeremy edited this 2 times, last at 07/11/2007 2:21:05 pm
gary.jpgPackOne - 1491 Posts
07/11/2007 @ 02:18:08 PM
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I don't disagree with you at all. I am just saying that giving a child up for adoption affects both parents for the long term - emotionally and otherwise. I would go further and say that it affects the mindset of the father that says "screw this" even more.
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PackOne perfected this at 07/11/2007 2:18:31 pm
ESPO copy.jpgPackOne - Sit down your rockin' the boat.
07/11/2007 @ 02:20:35 PM
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A guy that says "screw this" and then later in life grows a "set" and realizes the impact of his actions - pays for that decision dearly. Not that he shouldn't either.
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PackOne messed with this at 07/11/2007 2:21:04 pm
jeremy.jpgJeremy - The pig says "My wife is a slut?"
07/11/2007 @ 02:23:34 PM
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That doesn't mean a) Those guys didn't place more then 50% of the burden on the mother or b) That there aren't assholes out there who truly feel nothing.
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gary.jpgPackOne - Make my own decisions. That's my perogative.
07/11/2007 @ 02:27:02 PM
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I agree. But if we take the male out of the equation from the on-set ... failure.

EDIT: I am actually agreeing with a nutcanner.
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PackOne edited this at 07/11/2007 2:27:51 pm
jeremy.jpgJeremy - 6753 Posts
07/11/2007 @ 02:27:35 PM
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or c) the fact that he feels bad 10 years later makes up for anything he did to that child/mother.
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 6753 Posts
07/11/2007 @ 02:28:00 PM
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Who said anything about taking the male out?
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gary.jpgPackOne - 1491 Posts
07/11/2007 @ 02:30:06 PM
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Jeremy Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 02:28:00 PM
Who said anything about taking the male out?


You said trying to argue that a male should have a say left you with a bad experience.

To choice c) Nothing will ever make up for it. That's why women's studies should be left to women.

EDIT - I would also like to say that I personally think the percentage of males that feel NO empathy towards the CHILD/MOTHER is probably microscopic.
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PackOne edited this at 07/11/2007 2:32:54 pm
fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - Cube Phenomenoligist
07/11/2007 @ 02:32:30 PM
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Are you talking about "taking the male out" of the discussion of what a woman does with her baby is wrong, or are you talking about taking the male out of the child raising is bad? I think maybe you're talking about the former and I'm responding to the latter.
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ESPO copy.jpgPackOne - She's got the whole wide world singing baby's song.
07/11/2007 @ 02:34:44 PM
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Jeremy Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 02:32:30 PM
Are you talking about "taking the male out" of the discussion of what a woman does with her baby is wrong, or are you talking about taking the male out of the child raising is bad? I think maybe you're talking about the former and I'm responding to the latter.


emoticon

Success - it's hard to work and try to make valid understandable points at the same time.
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PackOne messed with this at 07/11/2007 2:37:43 pm
fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 6753 Posts
07/11/2007 @ 02:37:31 PM
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Well then I agree, it's preposterous to argue the father should get no say in the outcome.
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ESPO copy.jpgPackOne - Push the little daisy's and make em come up.
07/11/2007 @ 02:39:39 PM
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Jeremy Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 02:37:31 PM
Well then I agree, it's preposterous to argue the father should get no say in the outcome.


I should have just said that to begin with. It's not a man vs. woman thing for me at all. Mothers will and should be overly protective of their born/unborn offspring. Sometimes, it just gets taken a little too far.
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 6753 Posts
07/11/2007 @ 02:45:25 PM
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I guess I'm willing to concede that if its a mutual decision that neither person wants the baby, and the father wants abortion the mother wants adoption, or vise versa, tie goes to the mother. However, if either person wants the baby I think that trumps the other's feelings. To argue the woman has every right to abort/give away a baby the father (who intends on being a devoted father) wants "just because" is, however, preposterous.
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Jeremy edited this at 07/11/2007 2:46:36 pm
gary.jpgPackOne - She's just a woman. Never again.
07/11/2007 @ 02:49:51 PM
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What about the mother that feels that her mate is no longer worthy of fatherhood now that she has just realized she is pregnant? - Keeping in mind that nothing has changed since the previous day when she did not know.

Ie: Two college kids - party animals. Girlfriend finds out she is pregnant. Next day, boyfriend - who still works at the same pizza joint he did the day previously gets totally wiped out of the picture. No longer good enough.
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 6753 Posts
07/11/2007 @ 02:56:45 PM
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Well again, nothing is without exceptions. Even if I call it preposterous. (For one thing I never covered the relative indifference of the parents. There's a wide array of feelings between "I've never wanted anything more than I want this baby" and "I absolutely could not have this baby") I see your point that a person who was ok to party with completely changes in the light of "and this is going to be my babydaddy." However I still think if he wants the kid you'd have to respect that. If he was good enough to have sex with he was good enough to be your babydaddy.

Any situation like this gets hairy in practice. I just brought it up because in that class to argue that, even on a theoretical level, the guy should even get an opinion, let alone have it factor into the decision, I may as well have been arguing that Hitler was a pretty good guy and the Jews were kind of asking for it anyway, in a Synagogue.
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Jeremy messed with this 3 times, last at 07/11/2007 3:07:30 pm
ESPO copy.jpgPackOne - Push the little daisy's and make em come up.
07/11/2007 @ 03:04:46 PM
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emoticon

Getting harder and harder not to like nutcan.
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PackOne edited this at 07/11/2007 3:05:24 pm
reign_of_fire.jpgMicah - 542 Posts
07/11/2007 @ 03:46:06 PM
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Jeremy Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 01:01:51 PM


Edit: I made the comment before you added your "hood and robe" comment, so clearly you fall in the "Then there are some" category. I really don't think it is the same thing though. We're potentially talking about things you chose to be and things you just are, which are different situations. Also, he said he thinks homosexuality is wrong, not that he drives around at night looking for gay people to hang.

Edit2: This is all regarding my feelings on whether or not I consider it being bigotry, not how I feel about homosexuality, which I'm fine with. (Though it does give me the creeps.)


I really didn't know that the whole "choice" argument was taken seriously anymore. I've known quite a few gay people in my life and not one of them ever claimed that it wasn't just who they were. You don't choose what qualities you are attracted to in terms of hair, eyes, whatever....why does the trait of gender automatically set off some alarm that goes "Oh my god he CHOSE to have sex with that guy." I didn't just "decide" I like girls with dark hair and blue eyes.....its just who I am. Substituting guys for girls doesn't turn that into a choice. It got turned into a choice so that people can say "You made that choice and now you're going to hell for it," and so they don't have to try and come to grips with the clearly horrifying fact that God may have made them that way.

I also think you need to seperate the opinion of whether abortion is ok and whether it is ok to legislate. I feel there are two majorities in America. A majority of Americans don't like abortion and wouldn't have one themselves. But there is also a majority that doesn't feel it's the government's right to legislate that choice. Maybe this has been mentioned since I haven't scoured every post as I have some work to do today.

Oh and Carl....remembering GWB INFERNO! was pretty much the highlight of my week.
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 6753 Posts
07/11/2007 @ 04:15:49 PM
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Care to fill us in on the GWB INFERNO?

The issue isn't that someone is sitting around thinking "I'm going to switch to guys." I really hope no body thinks it's really just something to choose to be one day, or for that matter can just decided someday to not be.

Sure you like a certain type of girls, but did a lifetimes of choices/situations add up to end up in that result, or were you just born pre-genetically predisposed to like dark hair and blue eyes?

All I meant is that while ultimately it might be out of your control, you could still decide that blond girl is pretty hot, even if she wasn't your hypothetical ideal. If you were black you couldn't just "choose" to not be. The gayest gay guy could choose to settle down with a woman, if say he wanted a family, even if he wasn't primarily attracted to women.

Plus again, you can be against a concept (homosexuality) and not dislike homosexuals. There's no analogous "I'm against black people, but have no problem with them."

That's why to me it's a little different than outright bigotry.
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Jeremy messed with this 4 times, last at 07/11/2007 4:20:56 pm
face.bmpCarlos44ec - "The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut by the lawnmower."
07/11/2007 @ 04:34:11 PM
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GWB Inferno? You kinda had to be there....

I agree with the separation of the concept and legislation of abortion. Just because I don't personally agree with something (for whatever reason) doesn't mean that it someone else doesn't have the right to chose for themself.
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wendy.gifWendy
07/11/2007 @ 09:19:08 PM
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I wanted so badly to read these posts and launch into some liberal neo-feminist tirade on the inaccuracies of your opinions, but it appears my little friends have all matured into free-thinking, well-rounded adults in the past xx number of years, and so I don't have anything to say except ... I agree.
(Why did I even bother to register as a user on this site)
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2887.gifAlex - 3041 Posts
07/11/2007 @ 09:30:08 PM
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Jeremy Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 10:00:27 AM
I didn't think I did dodge it. Societies morals are rooted in religion, but as I said I have to imagine we would have made similar laws to some of the 10 commandments either way. I'm not philosopher enough to untangle morals and religion, but there are a lot of atheists floating around out there, and they aren't all killing and raping people.


That's pretty much my point. There is no one who is philosopher enough untangle it. And you argued separation of Church and State in regards to legalizing gay marriage in an article about the "gray areas", and I'm arguing that separation of Church and State with regards to what is morals and what is religion is probably one of the most gray of all areas. Religions can't just do ANYTHING they want in this country, and on the flip side you can't really expect people (voters -> lawmakers) to not be influenced by their own personal beliefs in their decision making process.

Jeremy Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 10:00:27 AM

if as you said there is really no good non-religious reasons to be against gay marriage, then doesn't it have to be considered a moral issue?

I don't follow that line of reasoning at all. You'll have to explain what you mean a bit more.


Would it make more sense if we called it a moral question and not an issue? The word issue has negative connotations. People are generally opinionated on the topic based on their morals (I'm pretty sure morals would include things you think are ok to do as well as things you think aren't ok to do, no?). So it's a morals question regardless of which way you feel about it? Maybe I'm wrong here, but my logic makes sense to me.

Jeremy Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 10:00:27 AM

In an ideal democracy "society" would make laws, but that's not the way laws are made. Laws are made by an out of touch governing body that follows the money.


That's a whole different discussion which should probably be saved for another day.

Jeremy Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 10:00:27 AM

You can't just say "it's not the same thing." You have to actually say why it isn't.


Actually I can say it. I already did. How about this:

female != male

x = female
y = male

x y != x x
x y != y y

Who says you'll never use algebra outside of school.
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2887.gifAlex - 3041 Posts
07/11/2007 @ 09:43:05 PM
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Jon Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 12:15:49 PM
I'm not so sure we're as equipped as we might think we are.


I didn't think it was necessary to quote the whole thing, but I think this entire comment was great.

At the least, even if you think that any human or society is actually capable of deciding what is and isn't a life, isn't this a case where you would want to error on the side of extreme caution?
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newalex.jpgAlex - No single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood.
07/11/2007 @ 09:47:52 PM
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PackOne Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 12:36:35 PM
Good points Jon. I agree it brings up a whole different set of issues. It also brings up a species point as well. Is it okay to destroy a hornets nest because you want a garden there? Does the moral issue only involve the human species?


I 4 1 don't believe that humans are categorically the same as animals. It's just not the same thing emoticon.
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2887.gifAlex - But let history remember, that as free men, we chose to make it so!
07/11/2007 @ 10:07:13 PM
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Micah Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 12:50:28 PM


Wow that's probably the first instance I've seen of outright bigotry on this site....hope you already picked up your hood and robe for the rally.


I'm going to go ahead and assume that the hood and robe comment is in relation to some sort of mage costume at a WOW convention of some sorts.

Micah Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 03:46:06 PM


I really didn't know that the whole "choice" argument was taken seriously anymore. I've known quite a few gay people in my life and not one of them ever claimed that it wasn't just who they were. You don't choose what qualities you are attracted to in terms of hair, eyes, whatever....why does the trait of gender automatically set off some alarm that goes "Oh my god he CHOSE to have sex with that guy." I didn't just "decide" I like girls with dark hair and blue eyes.....its just who I am. Substituting guys for girls doesn't turn that into a choice. It got turned into a choice so that people can say "You made that choice and now you're going to hell for it," and so they don't have to try and come to grips with the clearly horrifying fact that God may have made them that way.

I also think you need to seperate the opinion of whether abortion is ok and whether it is ok to legislate. I feel there are two majorities in America. A majority of Americans don't like abortion and wouldn't have one themselves. But there is also a majority that doesn't feel it's the government's right to legislate that choice. Maybe this has been mentioned since I haven't scoured every post as I have some work to do today.


The fact that no gay person you ever meet didn't think that they were making a choice doesn't prove anything. And I can just as well say that homosexuality got changed from a choice into some hardwired biological behavior so that people don't have to try to come to grips with the clearly horrifying fact that God actually doesn't approve it. Either way, neither argument has much basis other than religious beliefs. Although I could maybe argue historical precedence that the views on it have actually changed from it being a choice to it being innate behavior that a person has no control over.

Also, I disagree on the abortion thing. I think most people that "don't like abortion" consider it murder and therefore feel compelled to try and make/keep it illegal to prevent the killing of human beings. People aren't just going to say, "I think abortion is murder, but if someone else wants to murder someone then I guess that's their choice."
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newalex.jpgAlex - 3041 Posts
07/11/2007 @ 10:13:37 PM
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Jeremy Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 01:01:51 PM
Also, just to add to the pain relevant/irrelevant argument, but play devils advocate a bit. Should that be the cut off of whether or not something should happen anyway? Couldn't you argue 2 seconds of pain to save 20 years of pain is the more humane thing to do?


I'm going to go all slippery-slope on this one, just because I know how much you love the slipperly-slope.

If we're going to start killing everyone who's in pain because "it's for their own good" couldn't that get out of hand pretty quickly? I'd rather not list any examples because I think we're all imaginative enough to see where that could go.
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2887.gifAlex - 3041 Posts
07/11/2007 @ 10:21:30 PM
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Wendy Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 09:19:08 PM
I wanted so badly to read these posts and launch into some liberal neo-feminist tirade on the inaccuracies of your opinions, but it appears my little friends have all matured into free-thinking, well-rounded adults in the past xx number of years, and so I don't have anything to say except ... I agree.
(Why did I even bother to register as a user on this site)


Considering that there are multiple points of contention over the last 50 posts, how can you just say you agree? That's like someone asking you if want paper or plastic and you saying, "sure, I agree". Therefore I can only interpret your post in one way: "I wanted so badly to read these posts...but it appears..." you didn't. There, now you have an opinion to tirade against. emoticon
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 6753 Posts
07/11/2007 @ 11:06:16 PM
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I disagree somewhat. Paper or plastic is a bit more cut and dry then what we're talking about. It is possible to agree both sides of a thorny issue have good points.

I would like to know her feelings on the issue though.
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reign_of_fire_150.jpgMicah - We can do this easy, or we can do it real easy
07/11/2007 @ 11:19:04 PM
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Alex Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 10:07:13 PM

The fact that no gay person you ever meet didn't think that they were making a choice doesn't prove anything. And I can just as well say that homosexuality got changed from a choice into some hardwired biological behavior so that people don't have to try to come to grips with the clearly horrifying fact that God actually doesn't approve it. Either way, neither argument has much basis other than religious beliefs. Although I could maybe argue historical precedence that the views on it have actually changed from it being a choice to it being innate behavior that a person has no control over.

Also, I disagree on the abortion thing. I think most people that "don't like abortion" consider it murder and therefore feel compelled to try and make/keep it illegal to prevent the killing of human beings. People aren't just going to say, "I think abortion is murder, but if someone else wants to murder someone then I guess that's their choice."


Except that a lot of gay people couldn't give a rats ass if God approves of it or not, so they have no incentive to change it from a choice to a biological behavior. You, on the other hand, have every incentive to demand that its a choice, otherwise you have no other way of telling them how wrong they are. And seriously, the statement against homosexuality is in the Old Testament for god's sake (unintended). By all means, lets all embrace the vengeful god of the Old Testament rather than the compassionate one that might actually cause some good in the world. You should really keep reading, because there's some other wonderful revelations in Leviticus and Exodus that would really help everyone's world views.

On abortion, thats actually how millions of women think. And I wasn't just stating an opinion. If you look at polls, over half the country (usually around 52%) consider themselves "pro-life." Yet only 20% of American thinks that abortion should be banned outright, and 60% think it should be entirely up to the people involved. You can work the numbers some as with any statistics, but those numbers have stayed relatively consistent over the last few years.
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 6753 Posts
07/11/2007 @ 11:33:30 PM
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Alex Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 09:30:08 PM

That's pretty much my point. There is no one who is philosopher enough untangle it. And you argued separation of Church and State in regards to legalizing gay marriage in an article about the "gray areas", and I'm arguing that separation of Church and State with regards to what is morals and what is religion is probably one of the most gray of all areas. Religions can't just do ANYTHING they want in this country, and on the flip side you can't really expect people (voters -> lawmakers) to not be influenced by their own personal beliefs in their decision making process.

Well again, people who are very anti-religion still have morals. Society defines what our social mores are outside of religion. I just lack the litterary ability to define the line, that doesn't mean there isnt one. As for whether or not people should be influenced by their religious beliefs: Separation of church and state doesn't apply. All that means is a government can't force religion on everyone. Ideally perhaps people could ask themselves "If I wasn't religious how would I feel and should I 'pass on' that belief to a society that might not agree." Ultimately you are free to vote however you want. I've heard of people that voted for Bush because his daughters were hotter than Kerry's.

However, personal beliefs and politicians pandering to the religious right for money and votes are two different things.
Alex Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 09:30:08 PM

Would it make more sense if we called it a moral question and not an issue? The word issue has negative connotations. People are generally opinionated on the topic based on their morals (I'm pretty sure morals would include things you think are ok to do as well as things you think aren't ok to do, no?). So it's a morals question regardless of which way you feel about it? Maybe I'm wrong here, but my logic makes sense to me.

No it wouldn't help. I seriously don't see morality and homosexuality in the same ballpark. In fact, they're playing different sports altogether. I still don't see the logic that if we remove religion from the debate it still HAS to be a moral issue.

Alex Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 10:07:13 PM
Although I could maybe argue historical precedence that the views on it have actually changed from it being a choice to it being innate behavior that a person has no control over.

Also, I disagree on the abortion thing. I think most people that "don't like abortion" consider it murder and therefore feel compelled to try and make/keep it illegal to prevent the killing of human beings. People aren't just going to say, "I think abortion is murder, but if someone else wants to murder someone then I guess that's their choice."

History has changed it's mind on a lot of things. We don't burn people for being Witches anymore. At some point we must have decided that was stupid.

Also I'll disagree on the last point there. First of all the statistics support the original statment Micah made. Secondly on a philosophical basis.

a) There are a lot of people who just like to SAY they are pro-life to feel good about themselves. In a recent poll 9 out of 10 people said they were religious, or believed in God. What do you think the percentage of people actually practicing a faith is?

b) No, not everyone does consider it murder.

c) Even if you were to concede it's murder, murder has loop holes too. (Like self defense....if only there was an analogous loop hole in the abortion debates.)

d) Some people realize that although their personal feelings are strong, they are only that strong because they are religious. So they pass that belief onto their children, and share their opinions with others, but don't necessarily think society absolutely has to share their religious viewpoint.
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Jeremy perfected this at 07/11/2007 11:35:00 pm
newalex.jpgAlex - If you're wondering if I want you, (I want you to) I want you to
07/12/2007 @ 12:45:04 AM
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Micah Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 11:19:04 PM

Except that a lot of gay people couldn't give a rats ass if God approves of it or not, so they have no incentive to change it from a choice to a biological behavior. You, on the other hand, have every incentive to demand that its a choice, otherwise you have no other way of telling them how wrong they are. And seriously, the statement against homosexuality is in the Old Testament for god's sake (unintended). By all means, lets all embrace the vengeful god of the Old Testament rather than the compassionate one that might actually cause some good in the world. You should really keep reading, because there's some other wonderful revelations in Leviticus and Exodus that would really help everyone's world views.


Just because some people may be more predispositioned to commit certain sins than others, doesn't mean that people can just say well God made me this way so whatever (I mean they can say what they want, but I don't believe that God accepts that as repentence). And for people who don't see anything wrong with it or have different religious views, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Also the God of the Old Testament is the same as the one of the New Testament, and I don't believe God's mission statement is to "cause some good in the world". Again, just my beliefs on what the Bible says.
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 6753 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 12:53:19 AM
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The other thing we haven't yet touched on is how scary it is to literally interpret a book that's been translated from translations.
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 6753 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 12:57:51 AM
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Alex Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 12:45:04 AM
Just because some people may be more predispositioned to commit certain sins than others, doesn't mean that people can just say well God made me this way so whatever (I mean they can say what they want, but I don't believe that God accepts that as repentence). And for people who don't see anything wrong with it or have different religious views, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Also the God of the Old Testament is the same as the one of the New Testament, and I don't believe God's mission statement is to "cause some good in the world". Again, just my beliefs on what the Bible says.


Fair enough, but you do understand many of them don't care about God's opinion on the matter, yes? Also the sin of homosexuality is the same as any other sin. As far as I understand a sin is a sin is a sin, and everyone is a sinner. Therefor God must forgive you of your sins in order for a person to get into heaven. If a sin is a sin is a sin then God must be just as forgiving about homosexuality, and for that matter, murder, as he is about back talking your parents as a teenager.
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2887.gifAlex - 3041 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 01:26:50 AM
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Jeremy Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 11:33:30 PM

Ideally perhaps people could ask themselves "If I wasn't religious how would I feel and should I 'pass on' that belief to a society that might not agree."


So even if it where theoretically possible for a person to say for the next 5 minutes I'll be non-religious (whatever that means), what exactly are they supposed to base their decisions on? Isn't this kind of like forcing everyone to be athiest whenever they need to make such a decision?

Jeremy Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 11:33:30 PM

No it wouldn't help. I seriously don't see morality and homosexuality in the same ballpark. In fact, they're playing different sports altogether. I still don't see the logic that if we remove religion from the debate it still HAS to be a moral issue.


Well it sure seems like some sort of issue/question/debate, so how would you classify it?

Jeremy Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 11:33:30 PM

a) There are a lot of people who just like to SAY they are pro-life to feel good about themselves. In a recent poll 9 out of 10 people said they were religious, or believed in God. What do you think the percentage of people actually practicing a faith is?

b) No, not everyone does consider it murder.

c) Even if you were to concede it's murder, murder has loop holes too. (Like self defense....if only there was an analogous loop hole in the abortion debates.)

d) Some people realize that although their personal feelings are strong, they are only that strong because they are religious. So they pass that belief onto their children, and share their opinions with others, but don't necessarily think society absolutely has to share their religious viewpoint.


a) As long as people vote the same as they poll it doesn't matter what "they really believe" in this case. But an interesting topic in and of itself.

b) I don't think I ever said everyone?

c) The one situation where it most seems there should be legal loopholes is for situations where the mother is at risk. In that case, it seems better to have leeway for a medical professional to assess the situation and give the mother options. What would I actually do were I married and had a wife in that situation, I have no idea.

d) I still think it's pretty complicated to try and say what is religious and what is not. Spefically if we're talking about deciding when a new human becomes a new human. As far as I know there really isn't any scientifical consensus on that question, so how do I non-religiously make that decision for myself? Flip a coin?
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newalex.jpgAlex - If you're wondering if I want you, (I want you to) I want you to
07/12/2007 @ 01:38:48 AM
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Jeremy Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 12:57:51 AM

Fair enough, but you do understand many of them don't care about God's opinion on the matter, yes? Also the sin of homosexuality is the same as any other sin. As far as I understand a sin is a sin is a sin, and everyone is a sinner. Therefor God must forgive you of your sins in order for a person to get into heaven. If a sin is a sin is a sin then God must be just as forgiving about homosexuality, and for that matter, murder, as he is about back talking your parents as a teenager.


Yes. What's your point?

I would agree with your statements about sin, with the caveat that God doesn't forgive you unless you repent. Murderers can end up in heaven, back talkers can end up in heaven, and people who lived a homosexual lifestyle at some point can end up in heaven.
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reign_of_fire.jpgMicah - 542 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 06:15:12 AM
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Jeremy Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 12:57:51 AM

Fair enough, but you do understand many of them don't care about God's opinion on the matter, yes? Also the sin of homosexuality is the same as any other sin. As far as I understand a sin is a sin is a sin, and everyone is a sinner. Therefor God must forgive you of your sins in order for a person to get into heaven. If a sin is a sin is a sin then God must be just as forgiving about homosexuality, and for that matter, murder, as he is about back talking your parents as a teenager.


Actually, unlike gay sex, which is an "abomination", if you back talk your parents, they are supposed to kill you. So you really don't get a whole lot of time to repent that one. (Exodus 21:17)
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 6753 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 08:08:55 AM
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Well, you're supposed be be stoned if you "lay with a man as you lay with a woman" too.
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thumbnailCAW1I0O3.gifMatt - 2086 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 10:34:29 AM
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Since I don't feel like jumping too far into a discussion that has proceeded this far without me, I'll limit my thoughts on the "comment area" discussion to the following points (while, of course, reserving my right to enter the fray at a later time):

Micah Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 12:50:28 PM
Wow that's probably the first instance I've seen of outright bigotry on this site....hope you already picked up your hood and robe for the rally.


That was uncalled for.

Jon Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 01:32:02 PM
But again, if we start to place ourselves as the judge of "this fetus's life wouldn't be worth living," we're delusional in our estimation of our knowledge of the future and in our estimation of what the value of a life is.


What he said.


Jeremy Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 02:02:29 PM
Even with adoption there is a potential for the very act of carrying the child to term causing harm to the mothers future. She could have to drop out of school, miss out on jobs because they don't want to hire someone who is pregnant, etc. Either way you are also talking about ruining an existing established life, or terminating something that is, at the moment, arguably not human, and in many ways no more a separate entity from the mother herself than you could consider her pancreas.


Well, life isn't always fair. I wouldn't exactly say that missing school or a job opportunity could be considered "ruining a life", more like unfortunate consequences of a bad choice. Regardless of when you consider it a human being, a fetus, unlike a pancreas, will eventually grow into one. To destroy that just to avoid a 9-month inconvenience just doesn't sit well with me (For the record, I realize Jeremy wasn't necessarily arguing this point as his view as much as he was encouraging discussion).

Micah Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 11:19:04 PM
You, on the other hand, have every incentive to demand that its a choice, otherwise you have no other way of telling them how wrong they are.


Generally speaking, whether or not some behavior is a choice or a preference hard-wired into your brain doesn't change its ultimate "rightness or wrongness". It may change secondary issues, like how it is dealt with, how accepted/tolerated it is, but if the action is wrong in the eyes of God/Society/whatever, it's still wrong either way (I see that Alex sort of made this point earlier this morning, but I'll leave my thought in as well).
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Matt perfected this 3 times, last at 07/12/2007 11:12:54 am
vignette.bmpCarlos44ec - 2020 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 10:54:42 AM
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Jeremy Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 11:06:16 PM
I disagree somewhat. Paper or plastic is a bit more cut and dry then what we're talking about. It is possible to agree both sides of a thorny issue have good points.

I would like to know her feelings on the issue though.


Dude, I so go paper. ANyone who choses plastic is WRONG and GOING TO HELL. Unless you want to use plastic to pay, then you are good to go. I also use metal spoons because cutting down trees to make spoons is WRONG.

I wear Hemp clothes because hemp is the most... ok no I don't, shut up.
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 6753 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 10:54:45 AM
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Alex Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 01:26:50 AM
Jeremy Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 11:33:30 PM

No it wouldn't help. I seriously don't see morality and homosexuality in the same ballpark. In fact, they're playing different sports altogether. I still don't see the logic that if we remove religion from the debate it still HAS to be a moral issue.


Well it sure seems like some sort of issue/question/debate, so how would you classify it?

It's a complete non issue with me. The question "Are we eating to much garlic, as a people?" is more likely to cause me concern. Besides, can't something be a debate without being religious or moral in nature?
Alex Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 01:26:50 AM

Jeremy Wrote - 07/11/2007 @ 11:33:30 PM

a) There are a lot of people who just like to SAY they are pro-life to feel good about themselves. In a recent poll 9 out of 10 people said they were religious, or believed in God. What do you think the percentage of people actually practicing a faith is?

b) No, not everyone does consider it murder.

c) Even if you were to concede it's murder, murder has loop holes too. (Like self defense....if only there was an analogous loop hole in the abortion debates.)

d) Some people realize that although their personal feelings are strong, they are only that strong because they are religious. So they pass that belief onto their children, and share their opinions with others, but don't necessarily think society absolutely has to share their religious viewpoint.


a) As long as people vote the same as they poll it doesn't matter what "they really believe" in this case. But an interesting topic in and of itself.

b) I don't think I ever said everyone?

c) The one situation where it most seems there should be legal loopholes is for situations where the mother is at risk. In that case, it seems better to have leeway for a medical professional to assess the situation and give the mother options. What would I actually do were I married and had a wife in that situation, I have no idea.

d) I still think it's pretty complicated to try and say what is religious and what is not. Spefically if we're talking about deciding when a new human becomes a new human. As far as I know there really isn't any scientifical consensus on that question, so how do I non-religiously make that decision for myself? Flip a coin?


b) Yes, I meant that not ever Pro-Lifer sees it as outright murder. Sometimes the concept just doesn't sit well with someone. It doesn't mean they would consider a person a murderer.

c) Good, then we more or less agree. What you would do in that situation is up to you. Welcome to the wonderful world of being pro-choice. emoticon Should i consider it humorous, given the thread that you said "were I married and had a wife?" emoticon

d) Some issues would be easier than others I imagine. Abortion for example would be "easier" for a non religious person to be against than homosexuality because abortion touches on a few of society's universal morals, while people are more so against homosexuality "because the bible says so." Realistically I don't think people can always do this, I'm not saying they should always do it, I was just saying ideally they could try to set aside religion for matters of public policy. That isn't to say they wouldn't arrive at the same conclusion anyway. As far as stupid reasons to vote for something go religious views are far down the list anyway. (And in the end what is ANY vote, if not trying to push your personal beliefs into public policy.) My concerns surrounding the deteriorating separation of church and state have more to do with politicians not doing what they think is right, but doing what the religious right wants them to do, than they have to do with Ma and Pa Kettle voting for an anti-gay marriage amendment at the poll.
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Jeremy screwed with this 2 times, last at 07/12/2007 11:09:30 am
matt.jpgMatt - Nutcan.com's MBL
07/12/2007 @ 11:09:54 AM
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Jeremy Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 10:54:45 AM
c) Good, then we more or less agree. What you would do in that situation is up to you. Welcome to the wonderful world of being pro-choice. emoticon Should i consider it humorous, given the thread that you said "were I married and had a wife?" emoticon


He wrote "were I married and had a wife in that situation". Sure, he could have just said "If I had a wife in that situation" and gotten the point across, but then it may have given the impression that he was married when he is not. Whatever the case, while what he said may be a little redundant (can something be a little redundant, or is it one of those either/or type of things?) it's not as bad as you made it out to be.
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Matt perfected this 6 times, last at 07/12/2007 12:12:42 pm
reign_of_fire.jpgMicah - Bring me the finest muffins and bagels in all the land.
07/12/2007 @ 11:24:33 AM
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Jeremy Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 08:08:55 AM
Well, you're supposed be be stoned if you "lay with a man as you lay with a woman" too.


I stand corrected...I always thought this one didn't call for death, but I was wrong. Guess I'll have to go sell my daughter into slavery.


Matt Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 10:34:29 AM


That was uncalled for.

Generally speaking, whether or not some behavior is a choice or a preference hard-wired into your brain doesn't change its ultimate "rightness or wrongness". It may change secondary issues, like how it is dealt with, how accepted/tolerated it is, but if the action is wrong in the eyes of God/Society/whatever, it's still wrong either way (I see that Alex sort of made this point earlier this morning, but I'll leave my thought in as well).


Well I find being completely intolerant of large groups of people to be uncalled for.

My point wasn't that it makes it right or wrong, but that I feel that the entire choice argument was created by people who didn't want to have to deal with the fact that people might be created that way from birth, and the effect that would have on their faith. The gay community has never embraced the choice argument and it was a product of the system around them, not their own.
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 6753 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 11:37:27 AM
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Well Jesus later says no one should be put to death, unless of course there is a person involved who has never sinned. (Because who are we, as sinners, to lord over and condemn other sinners.)

Born into it, or not, you could ultimately choose not to act on it. If we found out serial killers were genetically predisposed to want to kill, that wouldn't mean we'd have to accept their lifestyle. (And no I don't think they are on par with each other, I'm just illustrating a point)
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matt.jpgMatt - 2086 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 11:47:06 AM
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Micah Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 11:24:33 AM
Well I find being completely intolerant of large groups of people to be uncalled for.


Except, what you quoted as a case of bigotry was him saying that he considered homosexuality wrong but that it was legal and he was ok with that (a view he shares with, I would say, a great number of people). Yet, you felt the need to equate him (and thus those who share his view) with the KKK. Talk about being intolerant of a large group of people.
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Matt perfected this at 07/12/2007 11:48:46 am
fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 6753 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 11:55:17 AM
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Plus like I said earlier, you CAN be against an act and not the actor.

Saying "I think homosexuality is wrong" != "I hate homosexuals," though I'm sure they wouldn't want to hear what you said.

(Conversely to the "fighting intolerance with intolerance" argument: Aren't we intolerant of the KKK's thoughts and actions? Isn't it fully justifiable to think someone in the KKK is a bastard coated bastard, with bastard filling? I think, hypothetically speaking, being intolerant of intolerance is acceptable.)

Edit: Also to the somewhat implied "the more people that think it, the more acceptable it must be" argument (and not to pick on Matt, since we all think like that) the KKK was pretty popular in its heyday, that didn't reduce their % of bastard by volume content any.
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Jeremy edited this at 07/12/2007 11:58:41 am
face.bmpCarlos44ec - 2020 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 12:03:12 PM
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Why is it that people whos beliefs are religion-based think that everyone should comply and be held accountable for them?

I firmly believe that the rules and regulations imposed on an individual by THEIR religion are THEIR burden. They do not belong to an individual who does not follow that religion, or core of beliefs. That is the religious side.

When it comes to murder and theft, etc, that is a social issue, and this is where we as a whole, as a society get to make rules for everyone to fall under- for this reason: You CHOSE to live [Here] which means you CHOSE to comply with our rules and regulations.

If you do not BELIEVE in what your religion states, then you CHOSE to believe something else...

...that's just how I feel- let people do what they will do, unless they take away from another. Does it really matter to you if men love men and women love women? Does it change your life in any way? No, probably not... but prove me wrong.
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Carlos44ec messed with this 2 times, last at 07/12/2007 12:05:45 pm
jeremy.jpgJeremy - 6753 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 12:03:34 PM
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Matt Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 11:09:54 AM
Jeremy Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 10:54:45 AM
c) Good, then we more or less agree. What you would do in that situation is up to you. Welcome to the wonderful world of being pro-choice. emoticon Should i consider it humorous, given the thread that you said "were I married and had a wife?" emoticon


He wrote "were I married and had a wife in that situation". Sure, he could have just said "If I had a wife in that situation" and gotten the point across, but then it may have given the impression that he was married when he is not. Whatever the case, while what he said may be a little redundant (can you be a little redundant or is it one of those either or things?) it's not as bad as you made it out to be.


No, I guess it isn't.

edit: Redundancy is redundancy, but you could probably move up levels of redundancy by increasing the amount of instances in a redundant sentence.
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Jeremy messed with this 3 times, last at 07/12/2007 12:12:10 pm
face.bmpCarlos44ec - You had me at "Hello"
07/12/2007 @ 12:13:15 PM
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where I work, redundancy is a good thing.
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reign_of_fire.jpgMicah - 542 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 12:24:27 PM
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Matt Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 11:47:06 AM
Micah Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 11:24:33 AM
Well I find being completely intolerant of large groups of people to be uncalled for.


Except, what you quoted as a case of bigotry was him saying that he considered homosexuality wrong but that it was legal and he was ok with that (a view he shares with, I would say, a great number of people). Yet, you felt the need to equate him (and thus those who share his view) with the KKK. Talk about being intolerant of a large group of people.


Actually what I took offense to was saying that he wished society was less accepting of it, which would entail society condemning a lifestyle choice that, as Carl said, doesn't affect their lives at all.
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reign_of_fire_150.jpgMicah - They just want the damn ash of that field
07/12/2007 @ 12:24:47 PM
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Carlos44ec Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 12:13:15 PM
where I work, redundancy is a good thing.


Good thing you don't work in England
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matt.jpgMatt - 2086 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 12:46:03 PM
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Micah Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 12:24:27 PM
Matt Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 11:47:06 AM
Micah Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 11:24:33 AM
Well I find being completely intolerant of large groups of people to be uncalled for.


Except, what you quoted as a case of bigotry was him saying that he considered homosexuality wrong but that it was legal and he was ok with that (a view he shares with, I would say, a great number of people). Yet, you felt the need to equate him (and thus those who share his view) with the KKK. Talk about being intolerant of a large group of people.


Actually what I took offense to was saying that he wished society was less accepting of it, which would entail society condemning a lifestyle choice that, as Carl said, doesn't affect their lives at all.


Well, unless he said that he wished it so much that he was thinking of rounding up some of his buddies and burning some crosses in the yards of some gay people, I think the "hood and robe" comment crossed the line.
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wendy.gifWendy - 163 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 12:55:45 PM
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On abortion: I feel very strongly about this issue, you asked for it, so here's my rant. I am on the side of It Needs to Be Legal. I don't think anyone who is pro-choice is "pro-abortion" and I'm so sick of people just assuming that. Like I'd get pregnant and have an abortion just for laughs.
But there are so many instances where it is medically necessary for a woman to terminate her pregnancy, and even some cases where socially it would be a big mistake to have the baby (yes yes, there is adoption but so what? It's MY choice).
But the misconception I fight most often as a strongly pro-choice woman is this: Everyone who loves to throw out the term murder. Guess what? That turns this into a religious issue, as in life begins at conception. You say the fetus is a "person." I say it's not. And even the most up to date studies show a fetus cannot feel pain until 20 weeks into pregnancy - guys, that's 5 months, a point at which 98% of abortion providers would even consider terminating. And since you cannot prove that that fetus is a "person" other than to say that's what the bible intimates, you cannot mandate that it's murder and should therefore be illegal. Throwing that term around as an excuse to find more ways to control a woman's rights, is lazy.

On homosexuality: An overwhelming amount of research is being conducted right now to prove there is a genetic predisposition to homosexuality. Read up. It's not a choice.
Think of it this way: With all the continued bigotry towards gay people, who in their right mind would contemplate choosing a lifestyle that was going to land them as a minority, as someone who cannot get married or share health benefits, as someone
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wendy.gifWendy - 163 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 12:56:16 PM
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... who could likely get their ass kicked for holding hands with another guy or another woman? Would you?
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vignette.bmpCarlos44ec - 2020 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 01:04:56 PM
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I agree with Wendy on Abortion- but going further, I still think it's a choice, until the "being" can exist without the unbilical cord.

No to throw a wrench into all of the debates, but seriously- what happens if stem cell research goes unchecked? Women will be able to "sell off" their fetus...es (plural feti?) the same way we sell off our blood and plasma.... is that where things are going??? That scares the shit outta me.
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Carlos44ec messed with this at 07/12/2007 1:24:45 pm
fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - No one's gay for Moleman
07/12/2007 @ 01:29:19 PM
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I would be against it if it even got to the "fetus farming" stage, but it's stupid to just throw the already existing things away under some half-baked "right to live" notion.

Also again (and not that necessarily I feel this way, but just to put it out there again) "genetic predisposition" just means you have tendencies to do things. Maybe a guy tends to be attracted to other guys, and that can't be helped, but ultimately he could choose to be with a woman. It is different than say genetically being a certain race, which you have no control over no matter how badly you wanted to. (The level of difference is up for debate, perhaps, but it is different.)
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2887.gifAlex - If you're wondering if I want you, (I want you to) I want you to
07/12/2007 @ 08:10:53 PM
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Carlos44ec Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 01:04:56 PM
I agree with Wendy on Abortion- but going further, I still think it's a choice, until the "being" can exist without the unbilical cord.


And just when is that point? Babies can be born early on their own or removed (probably not the technical term) early for medical reasons and they still survive.
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newalex.jpgAlex - All your base are belong to Obama
07/12/2007 @ 08:16:04 PM
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Wendy Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 12:55:45 PM
Think of it this way: With all the continued bigotry towards gay people, who in their right mind would contemplate choosing a lifestyle that was going to land them as a minority, as someone who cannot get married or share health benefits, as someone... who could likely get their ass kicked for holding hands with another guy or another woman? Would you?


So your reasoning is that no one in their right mind would ever choose to be in a minority for which they might very likely take some flack in one form or another? If that's true then well, I guess only rampant conformists are in their right mind.
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vignette.bmpCarlos44ec - 2020 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 08:16:33 PM
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Never claimed that I knew when the point was, and I'm pretty sure that would be debated pretty hotly too.
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wendy.gifWendy - 163 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 08:19:40 PM
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Alex Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 08:16:04 PM
Wendy Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 12:55:45 PM
Think of it this way: With all the continued bigotry towards gay people, who in their right mind would contemplate choosing a lifestyle that was going to land them as a minority, as someone who cannot get married or share health benefits, as someone... who could likely get their ass kicked for holding hands with another guy or another woman? Would you?


So your reasoning is that no one in their right mind would ever choose to be in a minority for which they might very likely take some flack in one form or another? If that's true then well, I guess only rampant conformists are in their right mind.


I don't think you can compare a lot of non-conformists and the flack they get to homosexuals and the flack they get. Especially because non-conformists don't conform strictly for the sake of not conforming. Of all the gay men that I know, not one would tell me they're gay just to stick it to society.
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face.bmpCarlos44ec - ...and Bob's your Uncle!
07/12/2007 @ 08:22:03 PM
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It's really starting to get to me how people think that being gay or bi or what have you is something that could possibly be a choice, or something you can just turn on or off.

Think of it this way- Jeremy is hetero, and is in love with and married to Sarah. Sure, he's straight, but he could CHOSE to be with a man, couldn't he? Put away your beliefs and "right or wrong" attitudes and think of it in those terms.
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2887.gifAlex - Who controls the past now controls the future
07/12/2007 @ 08:24:04 PM
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Micah Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 12:24:27 PM

Actually what I took offense to was saying that he wished society was less accepting of it, which would entail society condemning a lifestyle choice that, as Carl said, doesn't affect their lives at all.


I don't get the "doesn't affect their lives at all" line of thinking. There are lots of things that are illegal and/or socially taboo that really if other people do them have no effect on my life.
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2887.gifAlex - Refactor Mercilessly
07/12/2007 @ 08:28:20 PM
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Wendy Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 08:19:40 PM
Alex Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 08:16:04 PM
Wendy Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 12:55:45 PM
Think of it this way: With all the continued bigotry towards gay people, who in their right mind would contemplate choosing a lifestyle that was going to land them as a minority, as someone who cannot get married or share health benefits, as someone... who could likely get their ass kicked for holding hands with another guy or another woman? Would you?


So your reasoning is that no one in their right mind would ever choose to be in a minority for which they might very likely take some flack in one form or another? If that's true then well, I guess only rampant conformists are in their right mind.


I don't think you can compare a lot of non-conformists and the flack they get to homosexuals and the flack they get. Especially because non-conformists don't conform strictly for the sake of not conforming. Of all the gay men that I know, not one would tell me they're gay just to stick it to society.


I'm pretty sure we're not on the same page here (mostly because I have no idea what you even said), but my point was that there actually are lots of people who do choose to be in minorities of many kinds that do receive some level of negative treatment by others because of it.
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face.bmpCarlos44ec - Since 1980!
07/12/2007 @ 08:28:42 PM
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whether or not something is socially taboo is moot, since homosexuality is still overwhelmingly socially taboo.

Taboos are different from illegal activity because in the main, illegal activities take away safety or rights of others. Social taboos are whether or not mainstream society is in agreement.
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2887.gifAlex - But let history remember, that as free men, we chose to make it so!
07/12/2007 @ 08:33:40 PM
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Carlos44ec Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 08:28:42 PM
whether or not something is socially taboo is moot, since homosexuality is still overwhelmingly socially taboo.

Taboos are different from illegal activity because in the main, illegal activities take away safety or rights of others. Social taboos are whether or not mainstream society is in agreement.


I think I mostly agree, and homosexuality isn't illegal, so...?
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2887.gifAlex - Who controls the past now controls the future
07/12/2007 @ 08:37:29 PM
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Carlos44ec Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 08:22:03 PM
It's really starting to get to me how people think that being gay or bi or what have you is something that could possibly be a choice, or something you can just turn on or off.

Think of it this way- Jeremy is hetero, and is in love with and married to Sarah. Sure, he's straight, but he could CHOSE to be with a man, couldn't he? Put away your beliefs and "right or wrong" attitudes and think of it in those terms.


I'm assuming that is supposed to be a rhetorical question with an answer of no? Otherwise it seems like you're contradicting yourself???
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vignette.bmpCarlos44ec - A Vote for me is a Vote against Terrorism! ...or atleast just wasted.
07/12/2007 @ 08:40:06 PM
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rhetorical
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face.bmpCarlos44ec - 2020 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 08:45:11 PM
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Alex Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 08:33:40 PM
Carlos44ec Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 08:28:42 PM
whether or not something is socially taboo is moot, since homosexuality is still overwhelmingly socially taboo.

Taboos are different from illegal activity because in the main, illegal activities take away safety or rights of others. Social taboos are whether or not mainstream society is in agreement.


I think I mostly agree, and homosexuality isn't illegal, so...?


My comment was in response to yours:

"I don't get the "doesn't affect their lives at all" line of thinking. There are lots of things that are illegal and/or socially taboo that really if other people do them have no effect on my life."

How a person has sex or who they love has nothing to do with what you or anyone else thinks about it, period. If it doesn't effect you, leave it alone. Let someone live the life they were born to live. It doesn't hurt you (I mean any of us) one bit.
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Carlos44ec edited this at 07/12/2007 8:45:56 pm
wendy.gifWendy - 163 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 08:55:46 PM
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Alex Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 08:28:20 PM
Wendy Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 08:19:40 PM
Alex Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 08:16:04 PM
Wendy Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 12:55:45 PM
Think of it this way: With all the continued bigotry towards gay people, who in their right mind would contemplate choosing a lifestyle that was going to land them as a minority, as someone who cannot get married or share health benefits, as someone... who could likely get their ass kicked for holding hands with another guy or another woman? Would you?


So your reasoning is that no one in their right mind would ever choose to be in a minority for which they might very likely take some flack in one form or another? If that's true then well, I guess only rampant conformists are in their right mind.


I don't think you can compare a lot of non-conformists and the flack they get to homosexuals and the flack they get. Especially because non-conformists don't conform strictly for the sake of not conforming. Of all the gay men that I know, not one would tell me they're gay just to stick it to society.


I'm pretty sure we're not on the same page here (mostly because I have no idea what you even said), but my point was that there actually are lots of people who do choose to be in minorities of many kinds that do receive some level of negative treatment by others because of it.


Repeat, more slowly:
Non-conformists, do not conform, for the sake, of not conforming. They find ways to separate themselves from society, to be different.
Most gay men that I know, would not be gay, just to "stick it to society" or to be different. Those that do, are simply flamboyant to be different or to not conform. They're aren't gay for that reason.
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - Pie Racist
07/12/2007 @ 09:09:58 PM
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Carlos44ec Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 08:22:03 PM
It's really starting to get to me how people think that being gay or bi or what have you is something that could possibly be a choice, or something you can just turn on or off.

Think of it this way- Jeremy is hetero, and is in love with and married to Sarah. Sure, he's straight, but he could CHOSE to be with a man, couldn't he? Put away your beliefs and "right or wrong" attitudes and think of it in those terms.


Only if it was you.

Really though this line of reasoning more makes the "it's a choice" argument.
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2887.gifAlex - 3041 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 09:15:44 PM
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Wendy Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 08:55:46 PM
Alex Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 08:28:20 PM
Wendy Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 08:19:40 PM
Alex Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 08:16:04 PM
Wendy Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 12:55:45 PM
Think of it this way: With all the continued bigotry towards gay people, who in their right mind would contemplate choosing a lifestyle that was going to land them as a minority, as someone who cannot get married or share health benefits, as someone... who could likely get their ass kicked for holding hands with another guy or another woman? Would you?


So your reasoning is that no one in their right mind would ever choose to be in a minority for which they might very likely take some flack in one form or another? If that's true then well, I guess only rampant conformists are in their right mind.


I don't think you can compare a lot of non-conformists and the flack they get to homosexuals and the flack they get. Especially because non-conformists don't conform strictly for the sake of not conforming. Of all the gay men that I know, not one would tell me they're gay just to stick it to society.


I'm pretty sure we're not on the same page here (mostly because I have no idea what you even said), but my point was that there actually are lots of people who do choose to be in minorities of many kinds that do receive some level of negative treatment by others because of it.


Repeat, more slowly:
Non-conformists, do not conform, for the sake, of not conforming. They find ways to separate themselves from society, to be different.
Most gay men that I know, would not be gay, just to "stick it to society" or to be different. Those that do, are simply flamboyant to be different or to not conform. They're aren't gay for that reason.


I regret ever using the wor[d] "conformists" in the 1st place. Everyone who is in a minority is not a "non-conformist". I don't think I actually did this, but if I did I never meant to imply that people choose to be gay to "stick it to society" or to infer that gay people are categorically non-conformists.
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Alex messed with this at 07/12/2007 9:16:42 pm
2887.gifAlex - 3041 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 09:19:24 PM
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Carlos44ec Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 08:45:11 PM
Alex Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 08:33:40 PM
Carlos44ec Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 08:28:42 PM
whether or not something is socially taboo is moot, since homosexuality is still overwhelmingly socially taboo.

Taboos are different from illegal activity because in the main, illegal activities take away safety or rights of others. Social taboos are whether or not mainstream society is in agreement.


I think I mostly agree, and homosexuality isn't illegal, so...?


My comment was in response to yours:

"I don't get the "doesn't affect their lives at all" line of thinking. There are lots of things that are illegal and/or socially taboo that really if other people do them have no effect on my life."

How a person has sex or who they love has nothing to do with what you or anyone else thinks about it, period. If it doesn't effect you, leave it alone. Let someone live the life they were born to live. It doesn't hurt you (I mean any of us) one bit.


So I can't have opinions on things that don't affect me?
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wendy.gifWendy - 163 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 09:22:59 PM
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Alex:
Then back to your first point to which I responded, and we'll remove the conformist word. No, I do not think very many people (key word many meaning some might) would choose to BE something that COULD result in getting their ass kicked, or result in their legal rights being taken away, or result in being shunned by their families or result in their life being a little harder than it would be if they had just "chosen" to be straight.
Yes, there are always exceptions.
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 6753 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 09:25:15 PM
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Alex Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 08:24:04 PM
Micah Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 12:24:27 PM

Actually what I took offense to was saying that he wished society was less accepting of it, which would entail society condemning a lifestyle choice that, as Carl said, doesn't affect their lives at all.


I don't get the "doesn't affect their lives at all" line of thinking. There are lots of things that are illegal and/or socially taboo that really if other people do them have no effect on my life.


Well yes and no. If murdering people was acceptable it could affect you because you we're more likely to be murdered. Homosexuality itself really doesn't have an analogous argument. Furthermore gay marriage should have even less of an affect, since the guys are already together, and just want the joint health insurance, and the like.

It's hard to argue something has a vast impact on your day to day life if two guys could be gay and you didn't even know it. Think of two guys you are good friends with that were roommates, now imagine you find out 4 years later they were actually gay. I hardly think your world would come crashing down.

Now of course this whole line of discussion sort of meets a dead end. Although some people choose not to care about things that don't affect them, it doesn't in anyway imply a person is only allowed to have an opinion about things that directly affect them.

AIDS in Africa doesn't have much of an impact on my day to day life, that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on it. I don't mean to start another section of flames, but I am firmly against AIDS. None of you with change my opinion on that. emoticon
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Jeremy edited this at 07/12/2007 9:26:07 pm
wendy.gifWendy
07/12/2007 @ 09:28:44 PM
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Everyone has AIDS!
My grandma and my dog 'ol blue (AIDS AIDS AIDS)
The pope has got it and so do you (AIDS AIDS AIDS AIDS AIDS)
C'mon everybody we got quilting to do (AIDS AIDS AIDS AIDS AIDS)
We gotta break down these baricades, everyone has AIDS ...
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2887.gifAlex - All your base are belong to Obama
07/12/2007 @ 09:30:15 PM
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Jeremy Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 09:09:58 PM
Carlos44ec Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 08:22:03 PM
It's really starting to get to me how people think that being gay or bi or what have you is something that could possibly be a choice, or something you can just turn on or off.

Think of it this way- Jeremy is hetero, and is in love with and married to Sarah. Sure, he's straight, but he could CHOSE to be with a man, couldn't he? Put away your beliefs and "right or wrong" attitudes and think of it in those terms.


Only if it was you.

Really though this line of reasoning more makes the "it's a choice" argument.


It does if you happen to think the answer is yes. And the way the question is posed it seems likely that a fair percentage of people would say yes, myself included. I think it's rather unlikely that I would ever make that choice (or that Jeremy would for that matter) but I can't say that it's impossible.

And if it's not a choice, then how do you explain people who have gone from straight to gay or gay to straight or bi or whatever else is in between the 2 extremes?
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - Super Chocolate Bear
07/12/2007 @ 09:30:43 PM
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Wendy Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 09:22:59 PM
Alex:
Then back to your first point to which I responded, and we'll remove the conformist word. No, I do not think very many people (key word many meaning some might) would choose to BE something that COULD result in getting their ass kicked, or result in their legal rights being taken away, or result in being shunned by their families or result in their life being a little harder than it would be if they had just "chosen" to be straight.
Yes, there are always exceptions.


Well, again, you could argue the "choice" isn't to be attracted to the same sex, but to not be with someone of the opposite sex. A gay guy still has the equipment to hook up with a female. Maybe the choice isn't to be gay, but to not be straight. (Of course, are you gay or straight depending on who you have sex with, or what you inherently are.)
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newalex.jpgAlex - Refactor Mercilessly
07/12/2007 @ 09:33:02 PM
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Wendy Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 09:22:59 PM
Alex:
Then back to your first point to which I responded, and we'll remove the conformist word. No, I do not think very many people (key word many meaning some might) would choose to BE something that COULD result in getting their ass kicked, or result in their legal rights being taken away, or result in being shunned by their families or result in their life being a little harder than it would be if they had just "chosen" to be straight.
Yes, there are always exceptions.


Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but if you look back through history or even take a random sample of 100 people in a mall, it doesn't seem like it would be to hard to find someone who could've have had an "easier" life if they hadn't choosen to take a minority stance.
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 6753 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 09:34:47 PM
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Alex Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 09:30:15 PM
And if it's not a choice, then how do you explain people who have gone from straight to gay or gay to straight or bi or whatever else is in between the 2 extremes?


Maybe some people are born gay and other people are just confused as to what they are.
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newalex.jpgAlex - But let history remember, that as free men, we chose to make it so!
07/12/2007 @ 09:38:05 PM
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Jeremy Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 09:34:47 PM

Maybe some people are born gay and other people are just confused as to what they are.


So are they born to be inherently confused for all their days (or for only a certain number of their days before their orientation is revealed to them) or is it a choice (concious or unconcious) to be confused?
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wendy.gifWendy - 163 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 09:40:19 PM
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(Text from Wikipedia, a totally reliable source. Motivation for looking it up: primate psychology course in college, also totally reliable)

"Some studies, notably Alfred Kinsey's Sexual Behavior in the Human Male (1948) and Sexual Behavior in the Human Female (1953), have indicated that the majority of people appear to be at least somewhat bisexual. The studies report that most people have some attraction to either sex, although usually one sex is preferred. According to some (falsely attributed to Kinsey), only about 5%u201310 percent of the population can be considered fully heterosexual or homosexual. On the other hand, an even smaller minority has no distinct preference for one sex or the other.

Despite common misconceptions, bisexuality does not require that a person be attracted equally to both sexes. In fact, people who have a distinct but not exclusive preference for one sex over the other can and often do identify as bisexual. Some recent studies, including one by controversial researcher J. Michael Bailey, which attracted media attention in 2005, purported to find that bisexuality is extremely rare in men, but such studies have typically worked from the assumption that a person is only truly bisexual if he or she exhibits virtually equal arousal responses to both opposite-sex and same-sex stimuli, and have consequently dismissed the self-identification of people whose arousal patterns showed even a mild preference for one sex.[8] Bailey, in fact, found that approximately one-third of the men he studied, a percentage that remained consistent across all three orientation groups, were not aroused by any of the sexual stimuli that he presented, a finding which he dismissed as irrelevant to his conclusions."
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 6753 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 09:41:54 PM
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Alex Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 09:38:05 PM
Jeremy Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 09:34:47 PM

Maybe some people are born gay and other people are just confused as to what they are.


So are they born to be inherently confused for all their days (or for only a certain number of their days before their orientation is revealed to them) or is it a choice (concious or unconcious) to be confused?


I described two sets of people there. Finding one bi person who flops back and foreth and can't make up his mind doesn't mean that's an ability/desire they all have.
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wendy.gifWendy
07/12/2007 @ 09:45:03 PM
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Alex Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 09:33:02 PM
Wendy Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 09:22:59 PM
Alex:
Then back to your first point to which I responded, and we'll remove the conformist word. No, I do not think very many people (key word many meaning some might) would choose to BE something that COULD result in getting their ass kicked, or result in their legal rights being taken away, or result in being shunned by their families or result in their life being a little harder than it would be if they had just "chosen" to be straight.
Yes, there are always exceptions.


Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but if you look back through history or even take a random sample of 100 people in a mall, it doesn't seem like it would be to hard to find someone who could've have had an "easier" life if they hadn't choosen to take a minority stance.


There is a huge difference between someone who takes a "minority stance" (aka, political opinions, social opinions like the ones we are discussing here, religious demonstrations) and actually being and living as a minority.
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2887.gifAlex - Refactor Mercilessly
07/12/2007 @ 09:50:46 PM
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Wendy Wrote - 07/12/2007 @ 09:40:19 PM
Bailey, in fact, found that approximately one-third of the men he studied, a percentage that remained consistent across all three orientation groups, were not aroused by any of the sexual stimuli that he presented, a finding which he dismissed as irrelevant to his conclusions."


"Let's see, this data seems important, this data not so much, tweak a few numbers here, cut that out, and walla, totally valid scientific research!"
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - Broadcast in stunning 1080i
07/12/2007 @ 10:00:50 PM
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Obviously it wasn't hence the comment that it was "controversial." I think that paragraph was more meant to describe how his research was irrelevant than anything else.

Let's stop all the fussin' and a feudin'. Anyone want to play some Counter Strike:Source?
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face.bmpCarlos44ec - Since 1980!
07/12/2007 @ 10:24:21 PM
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are you kidding? I havent played that in a while- like a month. I will mop the floor with porter hizzouse
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 6753 Posts
07/12/2007 @ 10:30:34 PM
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Get on aim or something then.
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ESPO copy.jpgPackOne - 1491 Posts
07/13/2007 @ 10:01:28 AM
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I know this thread has had alot of talk about minorities. Tonight, my buddy (29 year old white guy with a shaved head), and I (35 year old white guy), are taking an 11 year old girl, who happens to be African-American, fishing. I don't find it remarkable by any means, just a different kinda night for two white dudes.
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vignette.bmpCarlos44ec - 2020 Posts
07/13/2007 @ 10:12:33 AM
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