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Added By: Jeremy
Added on: 08/02/2007 @ 11:03:05 AM
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Abortion - How Much Jail Time?

I thought this was a pretty interesting article/mini documentary, and since we just had a big debate, I thought it was fitting.

If abortion was made illegal, what should the woman's punishment be?

It's funny to see the fact that not only did the protesters not have a prepared talking point (Like if you asked them "Should abortion be illegal?") but that they had literally never thought of what "Illegal" means.

It's also kind of interesting how if you didn't know what you were watching and heard only the responses to "What should happen to the women?" you would swear you were listing to a group of pro choice people, let alone people protesting at an abortion clinic.

The old lady in particular just made my head hurt.
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wendy.gifWendy
08/02/2007 @ 12:07:55 PM
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Jeremy, you're a firestarter!
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 1.21 Gigawatts!?!?
08/02/2007 @ 12:13:32 PM
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You know what's funny? I really didn't think I'd start anything in that article. Not because I thought I solved all the world's woes by pointing out we can compromise, but because I didn't really say anything all that controversial, I represented both sides, and we had hashed all of it out in other areas of the site.

I guess in the end though just saying the word "Abortion" is enough to start a flame war.

Did you read the article/watch the video Wendy? (It's only like 5 minutes long.)
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Jeremy screwed with this at 08/02/2007 12:14:17 pm
wendy.gifWendy
08/02/2007 @ 12:15:28 PM
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I was only teasing - you aren't an instigator. But here I go anyway ...

I've never heard this topic approached in this way and it's fascinating how many of those people, most of whom are so passionate and righteous about the absolution of their stance, back down and start to waver when asked about the specifics of it.

Take for example the woman in the hat & glasses: "You have to take a lot of things into consideration" and she used the example of whether the woman knew what she was doing. Knew what she was doing? Like she thought she was going into a 7-Eleven instead of a Planned Parenthood and WHOOPS ended up no longer pregnant?
(From the article: "State statutes that propose punishing only a physician suggest the woman was merely some addled bystander who happened to find herself in the wrong stirrups at the wrong time.")

They also seem to make a big differentiation between an adult murdering another adult, versus a pregnant mother "murdering" a baby (their phrasing, not mine). If they are going to so staunchly use the term murder synonomously with abortion, how can you then turn around and say one life has more meaning than the other, and the guilty party did more wrong or less wrong depending on whether it was a full-grown person or a fetus?
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 8953 Posts
08/02/2007 @ 12:33:27 PM
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Yeah, I found that very interesting. It's murder, but should be pushed with counseling and people praying for you. It's exactly the same as murder, but then, legally speaking, less of an issue than a speeding ticket?

Now I don't think this guy set out to film for 5 minutes and found only these people, I'm sure to a degree these people were cherry picked in editing. On the other hand though, how many people could there have been there?
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Jeremy perfected this at 08/02/2007 12:34:01 pm
fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 8953 Posts
08/02/2007 @ 12:41:23 PM
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"SPOILER ALERT!" Dont read on before you watch!! emoticon




Also, just for the record, when the woman does the whole "I just talked to someone who almost made me rationalize into ungodly thoughts" blessing of herself at the end I did a GIGANTIC internal "eye roll." Was I alone on that?
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face.bmpCarlos44ec - 2078 Posts
08/02/2007 @ 12:45:26 PM
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You know, I never actually roll my eyes. It's always an internal thing. funny, I don't know if I ever HAVE physically done it!
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 8953 Posts
08/02/2007 @ 12:47:17 PM
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I meant was I alone in the "Oh geeze"-ness of the moment. Not am I alone on the eye-rolling-internally front.
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wendy.gifWendy - 163 Posts
08/02/2007 @ 01:02:45 PM
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For fairness sake, I would be interested in hearing what the people who didn't make the cut had to say. Do you think are a solid number of pro-lifers who think a woman who has an abortion (if illegal) should go to jail? For how long? Too bad he Michael-Moored the segment.
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vignette.bmpCarlos44ec - Since 1980!
08/02/2007 @ 01:07:27 PM
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Jeremy- I was only teasing you... I pretend attempt to derail the conversation.
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - I believe virtually everything I read.
08/02/2007 @ 01:16:22 PM
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Well we don't know what he did and didn't show, I'm just operating under the assumption he didn't film for 6 minutes to get a 6 minute spot.

I think there probably are a large number of people who think women should go to jail, and you know what? Good for them. "I think those women should be subject to jail and the death penalty" is at least a respectable position. At least it doesn't use the hypocritical black-and-white "It's absolutely murder, no matter what the circumstances" paired with "the punishment should be some prayers, iff you haven't been punished enough by the ordeal in and of itself already" logic these people demonstrated. Agree with it or not, it would at least be logical to believe something you think of as a crime is deserving of a punishment.

My mom, at least originally, supported the war in Iraq, my dad asked her if she would still support it if my brother died over there. She said yes and he couldn't believe it. I, on the other hand, respected that because, though I didn't agree, at least she wasn't being a hypocritical "NIMBY" on the subject.
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Jeremy screwed with this 3 times, last at 08/02/2007 1:39:25 pm
jeremy.jpgJeremy - The pig says "My wife is a slut?"
08/02/2007 @ 04:55:47 PM
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Also, I know the comments (mostly mine) have started to go that way, but I really didn't post the link with "Hurrrrr, look at the stupid people," in mind. I really did just think it was interesting because you almost never hear the issue talked about in that sense.
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Jeremy screwed with this 2 times, last at 08/02/2007 5:05:54 pm
matt.jpgMatt - Ombudsman
08/02/2007 @ 05:55:44 PM
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From the article: Luckily, there still remains one justice on the court who has actually been pregnant, and Ruth Bader Ginsburg roared back with a dissent that called Kennedy's caveat about regret an "anti-abortion shibboleth"

Yes, because only women who have been pregnant possess the necessary abilities to interpret the Constitution with regard to abortion laws.
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Matt screwed with this at 08/02/2007 6:00:48 pm
wendy.gifWendy - 163 Posts
08/02/2007 @ 06:13:09 PM
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What's a shibboleth?
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matt.jpgMatt - Ombudsman
08/02/2007 @ 06:17:44 PM
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Shibboleth
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Matt screwed with this 2 times, last at 08/02/2007 6:19:32 pm
thumbnailCAW1I0O3.gifMatt - 3354 Posts
08/02/2007 @ 08:51:20 PM
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I came across this response to the article Jeremy linked to yesterday, but didn't give it much more than a quick look over at the time. Now, after reading the MSNBC article and watching the video, I went back and read the whole thing. It's actually a "symposium" of various pro-lifer's responses to the article, and as such, some responses are better than others.

With the standard caveat that my posting of this doesn't necessarily mean that I agree 100% with any or all of the points made in the article, I will add that the arguments I found the most interesting/compelling/informative/etc. were the ones by: Hadley Arkes; Joseph Dellapenna; Clarke D. Forsythe; Matthew J. Franck; Frederica Mathewes-Green; O. Carter Snead; and Walter M. Weber
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Matt edited this 2 times, last at 08/02/2007 10:36:40 pm
wendy.gifWendy
08/02/2007 @ 09:43:05 PM
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Thank you for the link. It's interesting to see how fast the other side responded, and articulately.

I think it comes down to this: For any issue, on both sides, there are always some very passionate people, but often, they haven't fully thought about why they're so passionate or choose to reach for the emotion instead of logic in an argument.
I think it's much easier to respect someone's point of view, even if it's opposite of mine, when they've clearly though it through and can present it in a manner that doesn't devolve into some 5th grade playground logic: "So's your face."

That said, I love this quote:
"Most women who get abortions are under tremendous stress and pressure, and few of them recognize the full humanity of the child in utero. This goes to the woman%u2019s mens rea and, accordingly, to the reasonable legislative judgment about the non-punishment of the mother. "
Oh my, I think I've got the vapors! I'm under so much undue stress thinking about this little ol' baby inside my belly, twiddle dee dee! (As spoken by Scarlett O'Hara)
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 8953 Posts
08/03/2007 @ 09:19:35 AM
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I didn't read them all, but it seems the central theme of many of them is why the abortion doctor would deserve some punishment. The thing is I don't think that's the argument at all, I don't think anyone is arguing 100% of the punishment should fall on the women, it doesn't have to be all or nothing.

I think the point of the original article was to point out how few people have even thought of the logical ends to their beliefs. It's easy to get sucker votes by saying you're anti-abortion, but politicians know they'll lose to many votes if they discuss the ramifications, so they dance this "crime with no criminals" dance.

To me it seems that if you are willing to concede that women shouldn't be punished because their minds shouldn't be expected to handle the emotions and gravity of the situation then you are conceding that it's different than murder and arguing some sort of "well women can have their choice, but doctors can't" logic.

A woman who murdered her abusive husband with a baseball bat would be subject to murder charges. Sure her state of mind and his abusive history may play a role in sentencing. The point is we don't pretend that she lacks the mental capacity to understand what she's doing and turn our ire on Louisville Slugger.
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Jeremy perfected this at 08/03/2007 9:33:22 am
reign_of_fire_150.jpgMicah - Shaken not stirred gets you cold water with a dash of gin and dry vermouth
08/03/2007 @ 09:56:40 AM
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Jeremy you sound like the tobacco companies in that last paragraph

"Jackie's cashing in on your wretched disfigurement!"

chiles8.gif
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vignette.bmpCarlos44ec - "Always remember that you are unique. Just like everybody else."
08/03/2007 @ 10:02:24 AM
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"Guns don't kill people, I kill people."

Jeremy shot my dad and he died. I will now sue Colt, and the ammnition company for my Dad's murder.
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matt.jpgMatt - 3354 Posts
08/07/2007 @ 04:50:58 AM
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Jeremy Wrote - 08/03/2007 @ 09:19:35 AM
I think the point of the original article was to point out how few people have even thought of the logical ends to their beliefs.


Except, throwing women who have abortions in jail isn't the only logical conclusion to those beliefs.

Jeremy Wrote - 08/03/2007 @ 09:19:35 AM
To me it seems that if you are willing to concede that women shouldn't be punished because their minds shouldn't be expected to handle the emotions and gravity of the situation then you are conceding that it's different than murder and arguing some sort of "well women can have their choice, but doctors can't" logic.


If you believe that women who have abortions are of some sort of diminished capacity at the time, then yes murder is probably the wrong word for them, but I don't see how that would preclude one from arguing that the doctor would still be culpable to murder, as he/she would presumably not be under those same conditions/pressure/etc.
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - Cube Phenomenoligist
08/07/2007 @ 08:45:43 AM
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Matt Wrote - 08/07/2007 @ 04:50:58 AM
Jeremy Wrote - 08/03/2007 @ 09:19:35 AM
I think the point of the original article was to point out how few people have even thought of the logical ends to their beliefs.


Except, throwing women who have abortions in jail isn't the only logical conclusion to those beliefs.

Jeremy Wrote - 08/03/2007 @ 09:19:35 AM
To me it seems that if you are willing to concede that women shouldn't be punished because their minds shouldn't be expected to handle the emotions and gravity of the situation then you are conceding that it's different than murder and arguing some sort of "well women can have their choice, but doctors can't" logic.


If you believe that women who have abortions are of some sort of diminished capacity at the time, then yes murder is probably the wrong word for them, but I don't see how that would preclude one from arguing that the doctor would still be culpable to murder, as he/she would presumably not be under those same conditions/pressure/etc.


A number of them hadn't though about what would happen period. Again, I'm not saying doctors shouldn't get in some, if not more, trouble. I'm just saying we shouldn't pretend like the woman thought she was going shoe shopping and tripped and fell into the abortion clinic. Should abortion be made illegal punishment of some form would be inevitable against the women, so lets get that out in the open now, rather then pretend it will be a crime with no chance of punishment because the "movement" might lose votes/support.
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wendy.gifWendy - 163 Posts
08/07/2007 @ 10:06:49 AM
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What kind of punishment is available for the guy that knocked the girl up then took off and said "It's not my responsibility." I think that's a pretty common scenario these days, at least with women who get abortions (as opposed to married or seriously-dating couples who just decide it's not the right time). But they're not actually having an abortion, so if it were made illegal, they still wouldn't be affected. Except maybe they'd be stuck with child support because the baby was made to be carried full-term.
I'm surprised more guys aren't pro-choice ...
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 8953 Posts
08/07/2007 @ 10:25:06 AM
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Well, you could argue things need to be equal. You could also argue that sometimes life isn't fair and that women just have to accept that the consequences of sex are greater for them when the two of them decide to get it on.
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Jeremy messed with this at 08/07/2007 10:26:01 am
wendy.gifWendy
08/07/2007 @ 10:51:25 AM
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(That was mostly a joke. But you took the bait anyway) :-)
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 8953 Posts
08/07/2007 @ 11:05:17 AM
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Well, regardless of how YOU meant it, it's a common argument from people who aren't being facetious.
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vignette.bmpCarlos44ec - Knuckle Sammich
08/07/2007 @ 11:35:08 AM
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I don't want to try and be a hero, and I'm not intending on knocking Jeremy's comment, but...

If you say that for women the risks are higher and that sometimes men just skip out, you are right, that is reality. If this is used to justify someone's actions, then they are just plain wrong and ignorant (not calling Jeremy this, he was making an observation).

If we go by that logic, then all we ever have to do is run away from adversities and hide- because By God, I shouldn't have to deal with it!
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Carlos44ec edited this at 08/07/2007 11:35:34 am
fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 8953 Posts
08/07/2007 @ 11:52:07 AM
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I think you're reading a little too hard into my comment. All I meant is that if you were to list the "cons" of having sex with a person the girls' list would be longer because it would contain "he could leave." I wasn't making a judgment call on anything. Sex is just riskier for women, that's just a fact of life. The debate is whether or not we have to actively"balance" that out somehow, or if the "tough shit" rule has to apply.

In fact this sounds fun, let's see how many things we can list:

Cons of sex
Male: Risk of STDs, Girl could get pregnant
Female:More of a risk of STD, could BE pregnant, he could leave after I get pregnant

I suppose the male's list could include "losing baseball scholarships due to bear eating arm."
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Jeremy screwed with this 2 times, last at 08/07/2007 11:55:45 am
wendy.gifWendy
08/07/2007 @ 11:53:25 AM
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Hahahahahahahaha

Now this one:
"Elliot, I'm a man. I've been programmed to think that a baby is the worst possible consequence of sex."
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wendy.gifWendy - 163 Posts
08/07/2007 @ 11:53:52 AM
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(I was writing the Scrubs quote when you posed your above Scrubs quote)
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vignette.bmpCarlos44ec - 2078 Posts
08/07/2007 @ 11:58:08 AM
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Mom talking to Daughter- "Honey, think of all the bad things they will call you if you have sex!"
Daughter- "Like what, 'Mom'?"

I got ya Jeremy
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - Pie Racist
08/07/2007 @ 11:58:11 AM
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I suppose the odds are higher due to the subject, but still what are the odds we would post a quote and follow-up to the quote at the same time?
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wendy.gifWendy
08/07/2007 @ 11:59:49 AM
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Get out of my head!
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