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Added By: Jeremy
Added on: 06/03/2008 @ 11:05:01 AM
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Vaccinate Your Kids, People.

It's good to see that at least Time is stepping in as a rare voice of reason in the main stream media.
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face.bmpCarlos44ec - www.digi.com
06/03/2008 @ 11:31:04 AM
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A lot of people argue against vaccinations. I am for them- I've been stuck with needles so many times in my life, and I rarely get sick.

As Navy brats, they always gave us immunizations. When I went overseas with the Army, I got a bunch more. I'm good to go!
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - Robots don't say 'ye'
06/03/2008 @ 12:06:42 PM
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We were all pretty much immunized. I think it's our idiot generation, who are starting to have kids now, that believes this nonsense. It seems no amount of research into the Autism connection will convince them otherwise.

The worst of it is that as the results come in they aren't being ignored by the "heads" of the movement. They are being touted as successes. If Thimerosal was the cause, there would have been a SHARP decline in autism. There hasn't. They are touting that the percentage of growth has declined as a success of removing Thimerosal, but simultaneously now making the claim that "well obviously Thimerosal isn't the only culprit in vaccines" to address why there isn't a sharp decline.

This is especially ridiculous when you factor in the fact that OF COURSE the PERCENTAGE of growth has declined. Say you have a room that you are alone in. A person enters the room. That is a 100% increase. Lets say one more enters. That's a 50% increase. One more? 33% and so on. It's a basic error of mathematics that they are touting as a success. The number of reported cases per year has actually increased, but they are a smaller and smaller percentage of the overall, growing, population of people with autism than they used to be because that's how numbers work.
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Jeremy screwed with this 4 times, last at 06/03/2008 12:48:46 pm
wendy.gifWendy
06/04/2008 @ 11:33:19 AM
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Here in Madison, it's almost like there's a cult of autism - like a special society of parents with kids who are autistic, and they act as such when it comes to lobbying for funding, or reacting to the latest research and spinning it their way. It's unbelievable.

And you should have heard them during the measles outbreak near Milwaukee a few months ago. Health officials were urging parents who might have avoided the vaccinations before, to get them now, and boy oh boy the Autism Club here went wild (because they apparently haven't done enough research to realize that thimerosal - their supposed #1 enemy - isn't even in most vaccines these days).

Note: I know more than a few parents whose children fit on the austim spectrum and none of them act like that. So this is not a slam against parents with autistic children, it's against those who ignore facts in favor of rage and radicalism.
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 8986 Posts
06/04/2008 @ 12:01:25 PM
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Yea, it's especially sad because not only will they not listen to the research after the fact, there was really nothing to make the connection in the first place. There was one paper mentioned in the article that proposed a weak connection between one CERTAIN vaccine and autism, but even that was found to be almost completely bunk.

The problem is we live in a society that cares more about being PC than being right, and doesn't care at all about the facts. This is the only explanation for how people like Jenny McCarthy can go on the talk show circuit and make claims that "motherly intuition" knows better than any scientists ever could, and not be told she's an idiot by someone else on the panel or the host.

It's just classic post hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning that seems to be running rampant in the public's view of medicine. Autism signs that the average Joe can notice don't show until a few years into a child's life, which just so happens to also be the time kids are getting the most vaccines. However, if you showed home movie clips to an expert they could identify signs of autism from the get go.

It's the same reasoning that a few years ago led to breast implants being blamed for every disease known to man. "I didn't have the plague before, I got breast implants, now I have the plague, clearly breast implants cause the plague."

Also, just for the record, a big reason Autism is on the rise is because we're getting better at recognizing it, and are classifying more things as Autism.
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Jeremy screwed with this 2 times, last at 06/04/2008 12:05:44 pm
wendy.gifWendy - 163 Posts
06/04/2008 @ 12:40:10 PM
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Jeremy Wrote - 06/04/2008 @ 12:01:25 PM
Also, just for the record, a big reason Autism is on the rise is because we're getting better at recognizing it, and are classifying more things as Autism.


A lot of kids get placed on the "autism spectrum" for slight signs of weird behavior, while in the past, that kid was just the weird kid in class, or more recently, probably heavily dosed with Ritalin.
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 8986 Posts
06/04/2008 @ 12:45:04 PM
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Right, these things always existed, we're just putting them under the umbrella of autism now.

Autism is many many things. Saying my child has autism is like saying my child has cancer. There's many many types and varieties of varying severity. I think in general autism gets talked about like it's one thing.
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Jeremy edited this 3 times, last at 06/04/2008 12:55:54 pm
jon.jpgJon - 1000000 posts (and counting!)
06/05/2008 @ 02:54:12 AM
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Jeremy Wrote - 06/04/2008 @ 12:01:25 PM
"I didn't have the plague before, I got breast implants, now I have the plague, clearly breast implants cause the plague."


Black Plague?
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face.bmpCarlos44ec - 2078 Posts
06/05/2008 @ 09:28:32 AM
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Jon Wrote - 06/05/2008 @ 02:54:12 AM
Jeremy Wrote - 06/04/2008 @ 12:01:25 PM
"I didn't have the plague before, I got breast implants, now I have the plague, clearly breast implants cause the plague."
Black Plague?


Breast Plague.
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 8986 Posts
06/10/2008 @ 04:16:28 PM
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http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=9

They've moved on. It's other ingredients now! The stupidity here knows no bounds. There's antifreeze in there! Hydrochloric Acid! Poisnous Chemicals!

It seems that they've moved on from Thimerosal to "toxins." And moved on from an honest potential to do harm that just wasn't, to flunking Chem 101. The antifreeze argument is like saying carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide are similar molecules, so they must do the same things. There's no antifreeze in there. Their hydrochloric acid argument ignores the fact that it's the pH that makes it dangerous, and it's being added to reduce the pH to a more neutral level, and it's soluble so it doesn't even remain HCl.

All in all their toxins argument is like saying table salt is poisonous because it has Chlorine in it.

On top of which they are ignoring the fact that it's the dose that matters anyway. Some people are just too stupid to reason with and I was disappointed to hear Jim Carrey was involved with this. (Also, I didn't realize they were a couple.)
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Jeremy perfected this at 06/10/2008 4:50:00 pm
jon.jpgJon - 1000000 posts (and counting!)
06/10/2008 @ 07:20:43 PM
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Why do you hate autistic kids Jeremy?
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thumbnailCAW1I0O3.gifMatt - 3387 Posts
06/10/2008 @ 10:34:31 PM
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Jeremy Wrote - 06/10/2008 @ 04:16:28 PM
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=9 They've moved on. It's other ingredients now! The stupidity here knows no bounds. There's antifreeze in there! Hydrochloric Acid! Poisnous Chemicals! It seems that they've moved on from Thimerosal to "toxins." And moved on from an honest potential to do harm that just wasn't, to flunking Chem 101. The antifreeze argument is like saying carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide are similar molecules, so they must do the same things. There's no antifreeze in there. Their hydrochloric acid argument ignores the fact that it's the pH that makes it dangerous, and it's being added to reduce the pH to a more neutral level, and it's soluble so it doesn't even remain HCl. All in all their toxins argument is like saying table salt is poisonous because it has Chlorine in it. On top of which they are ignoring the fact that it's the dose that matters anyway. Some people are just too stupid to reason with and I was disappointed to hear Jim Carrey was involved with this. (Also, I didn't realize they were a couple.)


When I was reading this, it seemed familiar so I looked at the date and realized its a couple of months old and that I had read it before (probably through an Instapundit link). Anyway, my favorite part was this:

"Indeed, he takes this sort of distortion to a truly comical extreme with this example:

'Sucrose is used as a stabilizer. Over-consumption of sucrose has been linked with some adverse health effects. The most common is dental caries or tooth decay, in which oral bacteria convert sugars (including sucrose) from food into acids that attack tooth enamel. When a large amount of foods that contain a high percentage of sucrose is consumed, beneficial nutrients can be displaced from the diet, which can contribute to an increased risk for chronic disease. It has been suggested that sucrose-containing drinks may be linked to the development of obesity and insulin resistance.'

Does Heckenlively honestly think that the baby is eating the vaccine or that there’s kilogram upon kilogram of sucrose in vaccines?"
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 8986 Posts
06/10/2008 @ 11:42:48 PM
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Crap. I had about 55 blogs open (the intra-linking on that site is crazy, like every-other-word goes somewhere) and I guess I posted an old one. (Which, in fact, has nothing to do with the recent protest headed up by McCarthy and Carrey that prompted me to make the post.) Loads of fail for me tonight!

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=139
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Jeremy edited this at 06/10/2008 11:43:12 pm
jeremy.jpgJeremy - Cube Phenomenoligist
07/28/2008 @ 10:36:05 AM
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God bless Amanda Peet
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vignette.bmpCarlos44ec - "The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut by the lawnmower."
07/28/2008 @ 10:51:20 AM
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God bless her because of her stance, or because she went nude in that movie with Bruce Willis?
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 8986 Posts
07/28/2008 @ 11:09:13 AM
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Both, I suppose.
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flower .jpgPackOne - 1528 Posts
08/01/2008 @ 07:34:32 PM
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I don't have any kids. I got vaccinated when I was younger. Perhaps that's an argument for either side.
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matt.jpgMatt - 3387 Posts
02/10/2009 @ 06:10:39 PM
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5683671.ece

The doctor who ran the study "showing" a possible link between the MMR vaccine and autism apparently manipulated the data to get his result.

The major breech of ethics is one thing. The preying on the emotions of parents with autistic children is another. But this guy has put many people in danger and probably has lead to the death of others as vaccination rates have been declining because of his manipulated data.
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 8986 Posts
02/10/2009 @ 06:48:27 PM
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Well, the thing is that the link was already weak at best, and there were tons of conflicting studies.

The Jenny McCarthy's of the world aren't interested in actual science. They will likely just reply that the evidence against the "study" was made up by Big Pharma. They are content to let things like their "mommy instinct" guide people into body bags while causing outbreaks of diseases that should be non-factors.
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thumbnailCAW1I0O3.gifMatt - 3387 Posts
02/10/2009 @ 07:22:52 PM
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Yeah, but while I think they are wrong, I do "understand" why the Jenny McCarthys of the world do what they do, and think they should be given somewhat of a break. This is not to say that their claims shouldn't be strongly opposed, but I guess I just feel more sorry for them than angry at them. They were dealt an emotional blow and grabbed the first thing that gave them back a little "control" over a situation that is essentially, random and uncontrollable. Now, if it wasn't for this guy and others like them, perhaps more parents would come to the conclusion that their child being autistic is just an unfortunate roll of the genetic dice, and that there was nothing they could have done about it. For that, I hold people like this doctor in the utmost contempt.
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - Super Chocolate Bear
02/10/2009 @ 07:49:45 PM
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I disagree. "Grabbing at the first thing" and other such emotional responses can be forgiven as a short term overreaction. That isn't the case anymore. They've seen the studies, they know where the data points, but they choose to believe that many people in the government and almost everyone in the medical field is knowingly, and gladly, giving their children autism in exchange for making a quick $40 (or whatever vaccines cost.)

They choose to organize marches, and buy advertisements, to spread their nonsense. I think you're being awfully generous to consider most of their actions anything but calculated.
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thumbnailCAW1I0O3.gifMatt - 3387 Posts
02/10/2009 @ 08:50:46 PM
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I never said that none of their actions were calculated. I just meant to make a distinction between the people who take this as view as an emotional response, and those who use this emotional response to make money or get famous. Sure, many of these parents should "know better" by now, but emotional responses can make people irrational, and can be hard to break. I'm fine with feeling sorry for them and thinking they are very much misguided, without thinking that they are necessarily horrible people. Like I said before, I'll save my ire for the people like the doctor who manipulated his data, and the politicians, media members, etc. who should be able to look at the data rationally, yet still go along with the cause for political gain, ratings, etc.
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Matt screwed with this at 02/10/2009 8:51:09 pm
jeremy.jpgJeremy - The pig says "My wife is a slut?"
02/10/2009 @ 10:58:32 PM
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Well, there's a distinction to be made between the top people and the fringe people, in this case scared mothers, who don't know who to believe and don't look into beyond what they hear on TV, which is all anti-vaccine FUD. Not everyone who doubts vaccines for a second is a monster, idiot, or anything like that, surely they have their child's best interest at heart, and Larry King wouldn't have Jenny McCarthy on if there wasn't SOMETHING there, right? The people on top however are interested in it enough to know both sides, and they should know better. Make no bones about it, Jenny McCarthy has killed people.

Even if you granted them their Big Pharma conspiracy, many ingredients they blame have been removed and autism rates haven't fallen. Vaccines are given in many smaller doses, rather than a few big doses, just to be extra safe. (Which, just like they'll do here, they used to their "advantage" because now they use the sheer number of vaccines kids get as "evidence" they must be doing harm.) Vaccination rates have fallen, and the autism rate hasn't fallen. Simple logic would tell them that there's no reason to believe vaccinations cause autism.

Now, what I think you're saying is that people are "allowed" to be crazy, and that the big problem is that they are given a voice by people who don't have a vested interest, (or at least, haven't drank the same kool aid) and should know better, but let people use their platform for fear mongering. In that sense, I agree. There will always be kooks out there, the Larry King's and Oprah's of the world should understand the issues, and consequences, before giving them such a large, unchallenged, forum.
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Jeremy screwed with this 2 times, last at 02/10/2009 11:04:49 pm
matt.jpgMatt - Ombudsman
02/10/2009 @ 11:14:13 PM
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Jeremy Wrote - Today @ 10:58:32 PM
Now, what I think you're saying is that people are "allowed" to be crazy, and that the big problem is that they are given a voice by people who don't have a vested interest, (or at least, haven't drank the same kool aid) and should know better, but let people use their platform for fear mongering. In that sense, I agree.


Yeah, that's basically what I am saying. It's not that I don't think they are doing harm, it's just that I think many of them deserve a partial "insanity" defense.
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Matt perfected this 2 times, last at 02/10/2009 11:21:15 pm
fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - Pie Racist
02/12/2009 @ 02:41:27 PM
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/12/AR2009021201391.html

Court Rules Autism Not Caused by Childhood Vaccines

"Thousands of parents who claimed that childhood vaccines had caused their children to develop autism are wrong and not entitled to federal compensation, a special court ruled today in three decisions with far-reaching implications for a bitterly fought medical controversy."

"The decision by three independent special masters is especially telling because the special court's rules did not require plaintiffs to prove their cases with scientific certainty -- all the parents needed to show was that a preponderance of the evidence, or "50 percent and a hair," supported their claims."
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thumbnailCAW1I0O3.gifMatt - Washington Bureau Chief
11/04/2009 @ 01:04:35 AM
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Why you can't get swine-flu vaccine

Answer: "government's decision to pander to unfounded and unscientific fear"

P.S. When I pasted the line from the article above into the comment box here, the following line was automatically entered along with it:

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/why_you_can_get_swine_flu_vaccine_GTHq2q7i8HeBQzyG4tQYLJ#ixzz0Vs5k37je

Is this common practice now (I've never seen it before)? Either way, I like that they accept that people are going to quote their articles and have found a way to try and make it work for them, at least a little bit.
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 8986 Posts
11/04/2009 @ 12:32:58 PM
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Yeah, that's cool, I don't know how they do that and can't find anything.

I think it's too bad that things are where they're at, but it's hard to blame people for "responding to fear." It's really just a marketing thing at this point. If people believed that square hamburgers caused autism, and there's just as much of a chance that they are the cause as vaccines, then we would expect Wendy's to respond by making their burgers round. It really doesn't matter if it's true or not, if people aren't going to use your product, you can change the mind of thousands of people who are already skeptical of everything you do, or you can change the product.

The problem is the celebrities that spread this nonsense, and go largely unchecked while doing so, including Bill Maher who somehow manages to hold the beliefs that the medical industry is a greed driven business, willing to kill people for a buck, and that it's practically a crime that people don't have access to healthcare.
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reign_of_fire.jpgMicah - 584 Posts
02/08/2010 @ 07:49:12 AM
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The Lancet finally retracted the study.

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2010/02/04/autism_debunked/
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - No one's gay for Moleman
02/08/2010 @ 10:47:22 AM
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Yeah, I heard that and meant to find an article. It's too little WAY to late. Wakefield is viewed as a martyr in the community of these kooks, and everything that comes out bad against him is just part of the cover up. It's hard to imagine more hub-bub coming from something that was so fundamentally wrong on so many levels.
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