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Sick girl = Prayer => Sicker girl = More People Praying => Dead girl = Reincarnation

There are a couple follow up articles now. Should these parents be in trouble? Are you within your rights as a parent to not seek medical attention for a child?

Did it ever occur to these people that maybe it's because of God's good graces that we have the modern medical system we have? Maybe that IS his way of coming to your aid.
View External Link [www.foxnews.com]
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 8986 Posts
03/27/2008 @ 06:47:19 PM
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Oh, and on Wisconsin! Always good to know we're doing our part to lead the charge back to the middle ages.
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flower .jpgPackOne - That hypocrite smokes two packs a day.
03/27/2008 @ 06:53:45 PM
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http://citizenwausau.com/tsfr/

Two blocks from my parents.

If you want the interesting stuff check the links in the comments section from erik.
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PackOne perfected this 2 times, last at 03/27/2008 7:24:16 pm
face.bmpCarlos44ec - 2078 Posts
03/27/2008 @ 07:50:48 PM
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I know that some people believe that using medicines and seeking medical attention are against their specific religion. This couple does not seem to have religious reasoning though.

It's a hard case, and both sides will scream.
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 8986 Posts
03/27/2008 @ 07:55:41 PM
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Sure, only one of them will be right in this case though.
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avatar2345.jpgPackOne - 1528 Posts
03/27/2008 @ 07:58:33 PM
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Did you read the mother's blog?
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 1.21 Gigawatts!?!?
03/27/2008 @ 08:21:26 PM
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I did now, yes.
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flower .jpgPackOne - Don't mess with Jeremy. He owns your tag lines.
03/27/2008 @ 08:23:51 PM
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Out there, way out there.
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vignette.bmpCarlos44ec - Tag This
03/27/2008 @ 08:56:45 PM
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Jeremy Wrote - 03/27/2008 @ 07:55:41 PM
Sure, only one of them will be right in this case though.


Which?
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newalex.jpgAlex - 3618 Posts
03/27/2008 @ 09:40:17 PM
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It's a tough situation in my mind. A mother abandons a 1 month old in a dumpster, 99.9% of the population says crime (although many would be cool with it if it happened 1-9 months earlier). A mother leaves her child locked in the car for a couple minutes, some people want to put in her jail (despite the likelihood that that would not be in the best interest of the children) and some people are ready to buy their own tropical island if she gets sent to jail (that'd be me. I mean as long as I could get satellite TV and the Interwebs.). Parents don't seek medical attention for a 11 year old who's symptoms may or may not have warranted it (reserve right to rephrase that once/if more details come out)? I don't know. What if they were poor and didn't have any insurance? As legal guardians, what level of symptoms does a child have to reach before you can be charged with a crime for not seeking medical treatment?

I think many people will have the opinion that the situation should have been handled differently, but as far as bringing charges against the parents I'm not so sure there will be consensus.

I will say that their religious beliefs are tragic. It doesn't seem so much that they are against doctors, but they seem to think they didn't have enough faith or pray hard enough to heal her. Which if you just follow that logic out then everyone would fail because everyone dies right (although maybe some people pray to die; at any rate some people certainly pray to live and die anyway)? God's answering of prayers isn't tied to your faith rating on a scale of 1 to 10 or how long or hard you pray.
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - I hate our freedoms
03/27/2008 @ 10:37:47 PM
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Right, not to mention by the same logic that says God's will can cure a disease if you pray hard enough it's God's will that the person be sick in the first place, so who are you to question it?

I think in general a religious family ignoring something hoping god heals them isn't that different than a non religious person just putting off going in thinking it might not be something important. We're not all doctors and something serious could be nothing and vise versa. If you happen to be religious and someone happened to die while you were praying for them I don't think you should be any more ridiculed than the family who thought their kid had the flu and it turned out to be something dire. (I don't think anyone should be ridiculed in that situations. Sometimes shit just happens.)

In this case though it was clear the girl was pretty sick. The situation was dire enough for her aunt to call 911 and ask someone to go get her because her religious mother wouldn't take her in. I don't know if that makes or break anything, but clearly some sort of "this looks serious, you should take her in." conversation took place. There's a line somewhere that you go from just being a religious person praying for a sick person, because that's what you do when times are tough, and where you opt that prayer will be the sole treatment for a very ill person.

To me some peoples' ultra religious views regarding medicine remind me of that old proverb turned viral-email-joke about the man trapped in a flood who keeps telling people who are there to rescue him "God will save me." After he doesn't get rescued, and dies, he asks God "Why didn't you save me?" and God replies "What are you talking about?! I sent 3 ships!" If God didn't want us to have a certain knowledge we wouldn't have it. It's not a question of free will.

All in all, test out your faith if you want when it's your life on the line.

I guess the first question is: Religion or not, does/should a parent have a legal obligation to get their child medical treatment.
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vignette.bmpCarlos44ec - 2078 Posts
03/28/2008 @ 07:46:42 AM
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I think the answer to your question is Yes; however, throw in the religion, and now it becomes less clear, atleast to some.

I feel that they had an obligation, sure- but I don't follow a faith that says I can't get help outside of prayer. Their criminal defence will have to prove (without a shadow of a doubt, obviously) that their motives were purely religious in nature. I can't see them being charged with much else than criminal negligence or whatever it is- unintentional manslaughter? Something like that.

So what would be the fundamental difference between their supposed line of thinking and saying that God kills soldiers because of the US stance on homosexuality? Can you see the posterboards touting, "God bless IEDs and Type 1 Diabetes?" (if you're Wilford Brimley, its "dia-bee- TUS"
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 8986 Posts
03/28/2008 @ 09:53:42 AM
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Well I don't know. The obvious answer is "of course they should have a legal obligation" but as with anything the devil is in the details and to me it seems like this would be one of many laws we have, much like the afore mentioned "Kid in car" law, where there's an ill-defined boondoggle between what counts and what doesn't. How sick does your child have to be before you HAVE to take them in? Is it severity or length of illness that matters most? If your kid gets sick and is throwing up anyone would assume it's just the flu for a day or two, but if your kid dies now all of a sudden there's this "you should have known" law we may or may not have thrown at the parents.

I would think though that, if there is such a law, this situation has to be over the line. Even if their religious views made them do it, does freedom of religion cover freedom to neglect your child? I guess it would cover your right to refuse blood transfusions, which may endanger them.

Also, isn't it possible that at least the same percentage of crazy people that exist in the secular world exist in the religious world? I know we have to "respect everyone's beliefs" because calling into question the most extreme of religious views automatically calls into question any religious views, in our society. It's possible that this woman IS just crazier than a rat in a tin shithouse, right? In fact I'd be willing to bet the religious world is a pretty large sanctuary to the insane because now all of a sudden the voices in their head are someone, they're God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit now, not a figment of their imagination that needs treatment. However, we're not allowed to talk about the fact that people that literally "hear God" are crazy without automatically turning it into a debate over religion period.
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Jeremy edited this 5 times, last at 03/28/2008 10:08:02 am
flower .jpgPackOne - If you got a problem ... yo i'll solve it.
03/28/2008 @ 10:08:44 AM
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Jeremy Wrote - 03/28/2008 @ 09:53:42 AM
Well I don't know. The obvious answer is "of course they should have a legal obligation" but as with anything the devil is in the details and to me it seems like this would be one of many laws we have, much like the afore mentioned "Kid in car" law, where there's an ill-defined boondoggle between what counts and what doesn't. How sick does your child have to be before you HAVE to take them in? Is it severity or length of illness that matters most? If your kid gets sick and is throwing up anyone would assume it's just the flu for a day or two, but if your kid dies now all of a sudden there's this "you should have known" law we may or may not have thrown at the parents. I would think though that, if there is such a law, this situation has to be over the line. Even if their religious views made them do it, does freedom of religion cover freedom to neglect your child? I guess it would cover your right to refuse blood transfusions, which may endanger them. Also, isn't it possible that at least the same percentage of crazy people that exist in the secular world exist in the religious world? I know we have to "respect everyone's beliefs" because calling into question the most extreme of religious views automatically calls into question any religious views, in our society. It's possible that this woman IS just crazier than a rat in a tin shithouse, right? In fact I'd be willing to bet the religious world is a pretty large sanctuary to the insane because now all of a sudden the voices in their head are someone, they're God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit now, not a figment of their imagination that needs treatment. However, we're not allowed to talk about the fact that people that literally "hear God" are crazy without automatically turning it into a debate over religion period.


I like that answer.
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face.bmpCarlos44ec - A Vote for me is a Vote against Terrorism! ...or atleast just wasted.
03/28/2008 @ 10:13:40 AM
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"But it's my religion, what right does the government have in prosecuting me for something that falls under my religious beliefs?"

Don't think I'm defending the parents, I think they should face neglect charges and whatever charges that apply for the actual death of the kid. I'm only saying what the boisterous minority who WOULD defend her would say. Point, counterpoint if you will.
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - Super Chocolate Bear
03/28/2008 @ 10:21:15 AM
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I get what you're saying. However, some stuff steps out of the realm of religion and into the realm of our society, even if it's done for religious reasons. You couldn't, for example, start a religion that believed sacrificing humans was necessary and expect to not face murder charges because you're "protected".

There is, however, precedence in terms of medical care refusal as it pertains to religion, so I don't know.
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Jeremy perfected this 3 times, last at 03/28/2008 10:22:17 am
face.bmpCarlos44ec - "The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut by the lawnmower."
03/28/2008 @ 10:31:37 AM
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Right, I understand what you're saying and I agree. I'm not gonna play that role anymore, however.
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scott.jpgScott - 6225 Posts
03/30/2008 @ 07:20:54 AM
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I haven't read through all these posts, but here are my thoughts. They're pretty simple, actually. Neglect is neglect. I am a Bible-readin, church-going, "hard-core" (or something like that), Christian. I believe that anything can happen with prayer, including being healed from a horrible disease or horrible crippling accident or something like that. Now, believing that anything CAN happen is different than believing that anything WILL happen. Not taking your kids to doctors because you think that prayer is all that is required is putting your kids in danger, and it is flat out putting God to the test, which he says not to do. In my opinion, and I think it is shared with some religious scholors, is that God doesn't perform the multitude of miracles (like healing the sick) as often anymore (at least not in industrialized nations; you hear stories of it every now and then in thirdworld countries or isolated tribes) because we have at our disposal people and knowledge to help take care of us. God provided us with this knowledge. God provided us with the doctors. I can just imagine the people asking God why he didn't save their daughter. His response would be, "You idiots, there was a clinic just down the street! Your daughter wasn't a cripple! Her legs worked fine".

This is also just another black eye for the Christian community, because now we have to mop up the reputation that Christians don't believe in medicine.
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 8986 Posts
04/29/2008 @ 12:18:39 AM
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Followup

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080429/ap_on_re_us/prayer_death
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - Pie Racist
04/29/2008 @ 12:27:46 AM
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Also as a follow up to these comments.

Alex Wrote - 03/27/2008 @ 09:40:17 PM
It's a tough situation in my mind. A mother abandons a 1 month old in a dumpster, 99.9% of the population says crime (although many would be cool with it if it happened 1-9 months earlier).


That's a pretty unfair oversimplification and mischaracterization of the issue.

Scott Wrote - 03/30/2008 @ 07:20:54 AM
This is also just another black eye for the Christian community, because now we have to mop up the reputation that Christians don't believe in medicine.


I don't think most people do believe that Christians believe that. (But they don't know that we know they know we know!) Aren't Christians the majority in the U.S. anyway?
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newalex.jpgAlex - I don't need to get steady I know just how I feel
04/29/2008 @ 01:17:03 AM
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Well, without needing to have round 65 on said issue, there seems to be a measurable number of people who would fit in that category. I realize you don't and probably no one else here does either, but to some people their "choice" seems to be all that matters.

As far as the mischaracterization, it's one situation likely leading to death (abandoning 1 year old) that probably has the highest level of public agreement, followed by another situation somewhat less likely to lead to death (not getting medical help for an older child) probably having the second highest level of public agreement, followed by certain death (of an unborn) somehow being more acceptable than the other 2 situations. Just seems weird.
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face.bmpCarlos44ec - 2078 Posts
04/29/2008 @ 07:46:04 AM
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I agree with Alex on the 9 months comment. Not going to elaborate, just thought that would be enough.

I'm glad they're being charged, but I don't know how the DA is going to get away with success. Also, her comment- 'You won't need to do that. She will be alive by then' could be turned into a good indicator that they need to look into Mom's sanity. Not saying that I take her faith for insanity, but it's an avenue I'd look into if I were prosecutor.
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - The pig says "My wife is a slut?"
04/29/2008 @ 08:58:58 AM
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Carlos44ec Wrote - 04/29/2008 @ 07:46:04 AM
Also, her comment- 'You won't need to do that. She will be alive by then' could be turned into a good indicator that they need to look into Mom's sanity.


No kidding.

Alex Wrote - 04/29/2008 @ 01:17:03 AM
As far as the mischaracterization, it's one situation likely leading to death (abandoning 1 year old) that probably has the highest level of public agreement, followed by another situation somewhat less likely to lead to death (not getting medical help for an older child) probably having the second highest level of public agreement, followed by certain death (of an unborn) somehow being more acceptable than the other 2 situations. Just seems weird.


Because 2 of those are alive: living, breathing, potentially talking beings. One of them is not. I don't want to get into it again either, suffice to say a vast majority of pro choice people aren't "cool with" aborting kids willy-nilly.
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vignette.bmpCarlos44ec - 2078 Posts
04/29/2008 @ 09:26:22 AM
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I'm pro choice, but against abortion. Figure that one out.
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 8986 Posts
04/29/2008 @ 09:29:51 AM
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I don't think that's a unique position at all. I'd be willing to bet there are many people who would say the same thing.
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vignette.bmpCarlos44ec - You had me at "Hello"
04/29/2008 @ 10:32:45 AM
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I know... sorry, I was being sarcastic again with the "figure that one out," meaning that it's not unique at all.
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 8986 Posts
04/29/2008 @ 10:36:34 AM
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I just meant to point out that that's a very succinct way of summing up many many people's feelings on the issue, I didn't mean to jump on you for feeling you're special.
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scott.jpgScott - On your mark...get set...Terrible!
04/29/2008 @ 05:47:58 PM
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Jeremy Wrote - 04/29/2008 @ 10:36:34 AM
I just meant to point out that that's a very succinct way of summing up many many people's feelings on the issue, I didn't mean to jump on you for feeling you're special.


Everyone is special, which is the same as saying no one is special.
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flower .jpgPackOne - "That's what I call gettin a piece of Pi"
04/30/2008 @ 09:44:28 PM
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I am going to defer to my permit to have kids argument from whatever thread that was way back when I used to sorta care a little less.
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face.bmpCarlos44ec - 2078 Posts
05/20/2008 @ 09:03:43 AM
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Here's one for you-

"Gramma died, just leave her in the bathroom and pray, she'll be back"
http://www.twincities.com/news/ci_9320610?source=rss
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wendy.gifWendy
05/22/2008 @ 02:29:06 PM
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Or maybe praying can raise the "dead"!

Woman Wakes Up After Family Says Goodbye, Tubes Pulled
http://www.newsnet5.com/health/16363548/detail.html
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 8986 Posts
05/22/2008 @ 03:16:38 PM
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Shouldn't the doctors have been baffled? Usually when Reporter McFluffPiece reports on stories like this and get to the point where they imply since there is no current explanation, there is no explanation, they say the doctor/scientist is "baffled."
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Jeremy screwed with this at 05/22/2008 3:17:32 pm
wendy.gifWendy
05/22/2008 @ 05:29:52 PM
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Why would they be baffled? It was the Lord's work
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 8986 Posts
05/22/2008 @ 08:14:32 PM
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I don't know, it just seems they are always reported to be baffled.
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matt.jpgMatt - 3387 Posts
05/22/2008 @ 11:33:28 PM
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"Doctors are calling Val Thomas a medical miracle. They said they can't explain how she is alive."

Doesn't this count?
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 8986 Posts
05/22/2008 @ 11:39:31 PM
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I mean they didn't use the word "baffled." Articles like this account for 80% of the use of the word "baffled."
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2887.gifAlex - Refactor Mercilessly
05/23/2008 @ 12:07:16 AM
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This thread accounts for the other 20%.
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wendy.gifWendy
05/23/2008 @ 10:58:55 AM
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Wendy Wrote - 05/22/2008 @ 05:29:52 PM
Why would they be baffled? It was the Lord's work


This was sarcasm by the way.
I'm sure they were baffled. I think the reporter just lost their thesaurus that day and had to use "can't explain what happened."
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - No one's gay for Moleman
05/23/2008 @ 11:03:45 AM
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If you ever have a hand in a story like this be sure they are "baffled".


Baffled!
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 8986 Posts
05/23/2008 @ 11:16:56 AM
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That was your 100th post, congratulations.
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wendy.gifWendy
05/23/2008 @ 11:34:51 AM
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Omigosh! I'm so honored!
I'd like to thank my mom, and my 4th grade social studies teacher, and of course my lovely fiancee, Chone (is that how we are spelling it? I can't remember)
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 8986 Posts
05/23/2008 @ 11:36:46 AM
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I think so. He'd probably be more weary of being called "lovely" than "Chone."
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face.bmpCarlos44ec - A Vote for me is a Vote against Terrorism! ...or atleast just wasted.
05/23/2008 @ 12:20:07 PM
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Why don't you buy him flowers while you're at it?

Actually, guys do appreciate flowers.
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 8986 Posts
05/23/2008 @ 12:24:55 PM
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What are you, gay?
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newalex.jpgAlex - But let history remember, that as free men, we chose to make it so!
05/23/2008 @ 01:32:07 PM
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Carlos44ec Wrote - 05/23/2008 @ 12:20:07 PM
Why don't you buy him flowers while you're at it?

Actually, guys do appreciate flowers.


...flowers as a clear sign that you don't understand your man at all, which means he's breaking up with you and re-gifting the flowers to the next woman he sees.
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - Pie Racist
05/23/2008 @ 01:43:41 PM
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I buy flowers for Sarah occasionally, but the impracticality of them always annoys me. First of all the "thoughtfulness" isn't thoughtful at all, sending a person a generic bouquet of flowers takes virtually zero effort. Secondly, it bugs me to spend $40-$50 (of joint money anyway) on something that's going to be dead in like 4 days.

It bugs me even more that in a way it's the sheer impracticality that makes it a romantic gesture in the first place. As if to say, "I'm willing to throw away my money for you"

Still, she likes them so I buy them. Damn you Big Floral!
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face.bmpCarlos44ec - ...and Bob's your Uncle!
05/23/2008 @ 01:44:09 PM
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Alex Wrote - 05/23/2008 @ 01:32:07 PM
Carlos44ec Wrote - 05/23/2008 @ 12:20:07 PM
Why don't you buy him flowers while you're at it? Actually, guys do appreciate flowers.
...flowers as a clear sign that you don't understand your man at all, which means he's breaking up with you and re-gifting the flowers to the next woman he sees.


or that your man is a homophobe.
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vignette.bmpCarlos44ec - ...and Bob's your Uncle!
05/23/2008 @ 01:48:49 PM
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FYI- I bought Meagen some flowers for Valentines day- being somewhat intelligent (read: I've learned over the years...Jeremy) I purchased flowers that are known for longevity. So what, the flowered parts themselves went away, but we have a great grean plant that still lives, and shows every indication of being good for next year too. Our plants actually clean the air in our medium sized townhouse, and also provide me with entertainment since the cat likes to hide in them, thinking the birds outside are actually something she can catch.

Buy the plants/flowers that don't cost $50 or more, and make sure they are not just roses that DO just die after a little while.

And about the "joint money"- is it all joint, or do you have "yours, mine, ours"? I claim right now that I will never have 100% joint!
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - Broadcast in stunning 1080i
05/23/2008 @ 02:04:36 PM
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Well I don't know the laws in MN, but here it's all joint anyway, whether or not you have your name on the accounts.

However, answering the spirit of your question, we have joint accounts and separate accounts. All our direct deposit, online payments, paypal accounts, and all that jazz, was pointing to our separate accounts, so we just left that, rather than change every single one. Sarah does the bill paying (that we have to write checks for) and mortgage paying with "her" money and we added her to "my" credit card where 99% of the day-to-day and certain other bills (cable, sprint) go. Every so often she'll need me to dump a little into our joint account. Any extra I end up with goes in that e-trade savings account we talked about on here a while back or one of my illegal offshore holding accounts where Sarah can no longer get at it.

Oops, better get rid of that last part.

Edit: We still view everything as "our" money, regardless of where it sits (other than my offshore account)
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Jeremy edited this at 05/23/2008 2:09:30 pm
face.bmpCarlos44ec - Since 1980!
05/23/2008 @ 02:05:58 PM
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you forgot crack and hookers
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 8986 Posts
05/23/2008 @ 02:07:07 PM
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No I didn't, I mentioned the day-to-day expenses.
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 1.21 Gigawatts!?!?
05/20/2009 @ 09:21:32 AM
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http://www.leadertelegram.com/story-news.asp?id=BK2OKEUGJTL
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