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Added By: Alex
Added on: 02/08/2011 @ 7:58:46 PM
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Arrest for Facebook post

It doesn't give the actual post, so maybe it was somehow worse than it seems, but arresting him seems wrong as far as I call tell. If all he really said is what they include in the story, I think it's time to delete the nutcan (I can think of at least one article that could get a number of people in trouble) and maybe just delete the whole Internet while we're at it.

It sounds like it was something he posted probably on his own page, not a direct threat against specific persons or even a specific school.

And even if he was serious I'm guessing he's not being held in jail right now or won't be for long, and he's probably just that much more pissed off now.

Wow. After reading the below I might have step up my "get off the grid and go live in cabin" time line.

"Disorderly Conduct Applies To Computers and Internet Usage

Wisconsin law defines a message as a sign, signal, writing, image, sound, data or intelligence of any nature whatsoever, which includes e-mail. Under Wisconsin law (WI Stat 947.0125), if a person sends a message to another person via e-mail or any other computer communication system and in that message threatens to inflict injury or physical harm to any person or any person's property, intends to frighten, intimidate, threaten, abuse or harass any person, or uses profanity, obscene materials, lewd, profane or suggestively lewd or profane language, whether or not the message is actually received, and whether or not the sender attempts to conceal his or her identity, the district attorney can bring charges for disorderly conduct or criminal harassment. A disorderly conduct conviction under this statute is a Class B misdemeanor.

If the intent was to do something lesser than the above, such as to harass, annoy or offend another person, then the sending of a message via email or any other communication system is a Class B forfeiture. "

http://www.vanwagnerwood.com/CM/Custom/DISORDERLY_CONDUCT.asp
View External Link [www.fdlreporter.com]
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scott.jpgScott - Ma'am, can you make sure your computer is turned on?
02/08/2011 @ 08:13:21 PM
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do you have examples of nutcan articles that you might be referring to?
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2887.gifAlex - 3610 Posts
02/08/2011 @ 09:39:31 PM
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Jeremy Wrote - 09/22/2006 @ 11:11:46 PM
Yeah I read about that a couple days ago, it's really insane. I could threaten to kill you right now, should the police come to my house? I can't even imagine the amount of threats people make on the internet on a daily basis.


Apparently the police should come to your house. Although my Fond du Lac police probably don't have jurisdiction over you?

Scott Wrote - Today @ 08:13:21 PM
do you have examples of nutcan articles that you might be referring to?


I think it'd be more fun for everyone to try and find their own examples. Kind of a football is over and baseball hasn't started yet lets go through a bunch of old threads-a-thon. Begin. Actually is there a statute of limitations on disorderly conduct content? Maybe we should find that out first...
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sarah.jpgSarah - So's your face
02/09/2011 @ 05:17:00 AM
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As Nutcan's most controversial writer (Hello Hudson!) I'm sure I could throw a few people in. Rip on our national past time and out come the crazies. But that's just a horse faced Nazi's view.
Or maybe you're implying I should serve some time?
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - Always thinking of, but never about, the children.
02/09/2011 @ 10:42:55 AM
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Well, my first reaction to what this is about was actually "Alex might think they made too much of this, but I think he undersold it a bit as well."

I was expecting something like "I'm glad the Packers won the Superbowl, now I wont have to kill Brett Favre" or "I'm getting so sick of the clients changing their mind on everything, maybe I'll just burn the place down. :)" Something that was obvious joking.

Though you could make the case the vagueness of the "threat" kept it from invoking this law, if you're looking for red flags, this is a good place to start. Everytime some messed up jackass guns down a bunch of people it turns out they left anything from "clues" to flat out saying what they were going to do everywhere, so in that sense, I think if you're going to have these rules, I'm borderline ok with this usage. He might not have planned on doing anything, but anyone with that thought in their head, who think it's ok enough to express, deserves at least a second glance. Or at the very least it's easy to see why they're interested. And in a weird way, IMO, the police taking you in for questioning, and whatever else happens, is more "ok" than following his actions in a clandestine fashion until you feel he's vetted enough. (Track internet usage, tap phone calls, etc)*

All that said, I'm not a fan of the rule. I mean, I guess we have to police threats somehow, but for a lot of these things I think we just have to realize that this is the cost of a free society. You're going to have bad speech and actions along with the good ones, and any action to try and crack down bleeds over.

I think we can all agree that violent video games are the culprit.

*I know that seems weird, but assuming no excessive force is used, it seems less big brothery to me to be upfront, even if intrusive, about what's going on, than to spy on us.
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Jeremy messed with this 6 times, last at 02/09/2011 12:19:47 pm
jeremy.jpgJeremy - Broadcast in stunning 1080i
02/09/2011 @ 12:12:57 PM
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Also, what's with sites deleting their content? I don't understand it. This isn't 1962 where every bit of storage is precious.
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2887.gifAlex - I was too weak to give in Too strong to lose
02/09/2011 @ 01:43:06 PM
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Jeremy Wrote - Today @ 10:42:55 AM
And in a weird way, IMO, the police taking you in for questioning, and whatever else happens, is more "ok" than following his actions in a clandestine fashion until you feel he's vetted enough. (Track internet usage, tap phone calls, etc)*


There's a difference between the police just checking into it to see if he was serious and charging him with disorderly conduct.

Maybe they did question him and find something else or maybe he has some sort of history that lead to the charges, but I'd personally have a hard time charging anyone for any single post they put on Facebook. Maybe he was just having a bad day or something.

Plus with the whole Arizona shooting situation weren't people rehashing over the top statements in the political arena? You can probably troll the interwebs for 2 minutes and come up with hundreds of "threatening" statements against the various political parties.
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 8821 Posts
02/09/2011 @ 01:56:00 PM
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Don't they have to charge before they can check?
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newalex.jpgAlex - 3610 Posts
02/10/2011 @ 01:52:18 PM
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110210/ap_on_re_us/us_teacher_suspended_blog

PSA for the day, don't vent online because people can't handle the truth.
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - Broadcast in stunning 1080i
02/10/2011 @ 02:27:51 PM
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Well, again, I think you're white washing this a tad. I don't think this person should be fired for venting, but she could have got specific or said worse things than reported. On the flip side, it's not nothing either.

The internet isn't some vast anonymous confessional that "doesn't count."
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scott.jpgScott - If you aren't enough without it, you'll never be enough with it.
02/14/2011 @ 10:31:38 AM
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at my last job, we used Google Talk for intraoffice chat. It was supposed to be for work related chat, but it got used plenty for other things. Anyway, there was a status feature that theoretically everyone could see. It was shocking the number of people that would use that status to put in subtle and not so subtle jabs at the company they worked for. It's weird, because outside the world of sports, Jeremy and I are pretty much on the same page. You can and absolutely should be held responsible for what you say, whether it's in a converstation with one other person or whether it is on the internet. Think of it this way, what if that teacher walked into a room filled with everyone she knew, from family to friends, to school coworkers, to teachers, to students, and said for everyone to hear that her students were "out of control" and "disengaged, lazy whiners." True? Maybe. But there is a time and place to make those complaints. In front of everyone you know is not that place. And facebook and other social media outlets is the equivalent of shouting your thoughts in a crowded room.
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - Always thinking of, but never about, the children.
02/14/2011 @ 02:28:03 PM
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You could make the case that there's a difference between venting to a friend, alone, and having that make it's way to the people in question and venting in front of class. However, the things still "count" so depending on what they are, that doesn't matter. Likewise we could debate, and it would depend on the details, of where complaining online falls along the "whispering in a friends ear" to "calling a press conference" spectrum, but I see no reason to grant everything online automatic "whispering in a friends ear" status.

If we were talking about a site like FML and somehow someone connected dots and got a hold of ip addresses and tracked down that it was her, or a blog that was completely anonymous until someone did such kind of sleuthing, that's one thing. Otherwise the internet needs to be treated at all times as "Don't say anything about your students/boss/whomever you wouldn't say to them." and, if you take that risk and thus wind up basically saying that to them, don't be shocked and appalled when there are consequences.
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Jeremy perfected this at 02/14/2011 2:28:34 pm
scott.jpgScott - If you aren't enough without it, you'll never be enough with it.
02/14/2011 @ 03:51:59 PM
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Jeremy Wrote - Today @ 02:28:03 PM
You could make the case that there's a difference between venting to a friend, alone, and having that make it's way to the people in question and venting in front of class.


Yeah, I think I overstated this a bit. I'd be pretty upset with my friend (or the individual, if they weren't really a "friend") if something I told to them in private made its way out. If that did happen though, I could much much easier deny having ever said it, since it is my word against his/hers, and it probably wouldn't go much further than "watch it, you two".
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 8821 Posts
02/14/2011 @ 04:00:00 PM
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Actually, rather than whispering to a friend I think the better analogy is a diary. Way too many people react to people being offended by what they say online as if the person broke into their house to read their diary, and are then offended.

The reaction is silly on two fronts. 1) Regardless to how private you think something might be, you still said it, so I don't know how you can be offended by others' offense or any repercussions. 2) The internet is very much not your diary. I mean, the whole point blogging started was because it was very much the opposite. Voyeuristic even. I don't think you have much of a leg to stand on when you write something somewhere where the whole point is for other people/anyone to read it, then want some sort of immunity for something with the implication being "those were just some private thoughts I had."

Edit: Of course people CAN just vent, say awful things, and not really "mean" them. Not to mention change their mind.
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Jeremy messed with this at 02/14/2011 4:04:49 pm
newalex.jpgAlex - You've got to trust your instinct, and let go of regret
02/14/2011 @ 11:50:24 PM
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I probably shouldn't have added the teacher thing cause it's different than the original link. A couple nights ago I was listening to some radio show, sounded like Dennis Miller I think, and I forgot what story he brought up, but he kind of was questioning whether the political correctness policing of conversation was making things better or not. Are we really better off as a society when every one is afraid to say anything that might offend someone, or would we be better off if people could speak their mind once in a while without walking on egg shells? Again, the story didn't give the transcript so maybe it was pretty bad, and it does say it was profanity laced, so maybe that part deserved a suspension. But just "labeled her students "out of control" and "disengaged, lazy whiners."", that doesn't seem like a big deal to me. If you're never allowed to call anyone out, that's what type of people we're going to produce as a society. Reminds me of college and the CS professor that most people disliked and complained about, and I don't completely exclude myself from that, but in retrospect he was teaching some of the most relevant lessons of anyone at the school.
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 8821 Posts
02/15/2011 @ 12:33:33 AM
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Dunno if I'd go THAT far. I do remember saying at the time "we're probably not all going to like our bosses/clients/whomever someday either" so in that regard there were some lessons learned. However I think most of the "we don't like him" stemmed from his actually being a lousy teacher, and I'll take cs lessons over life lessons in a class I'm paying an ass ton for any day.

It did say she was a high school teacher, so in that regard I think it's more ok, at least as opposed to a 3rd grade teacher. There's a place for tough love, and maybe this was it, I don't know. Also there's the angle of even if the comments themselves weren't firing worthy, the class still knows she hates them, so you can't exactly just let her pick right back up.

I was only objecting to the widely prevalent notion that people seem to think they have immunity online, or in their private time all around, for that matter.
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Jeremy perfected this at 02/15/2011 12:36:01 am
scott.jpgScott - 6216 Posts
02/15/2011 @ 11:34:15 AM
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Alex Wrote - Yesterday @ 11:50:24 PM
Are we really better off as a society when every one is afraid to say anything that might offend someone, or would we be better off if people could speak their mind once in a while without walking on egg shells?


There's a pretty big difference between speaking your mind and saying you are going to plan another columbine. And also, there's a difference between speaking your mind and ripping your students and/or employer. Those things should be dealt with from a more professional level.
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Scott screwed with this at 02/15/2011 11:36:37 am
jeremy.jpgJeremy - 8821 Posts
02/15/2011 @ 02:46:48 PM
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Plus no one is saying she can't speak her mind. Accepting that there can be consequences to doing so is another thing altogether.

Edit: And as for the first guy/original post, it would be unfair to spin that as "man goes to jail for having an opinion someone didn't like." Even if the reaction was a bit much, it's a different thing.

Edit 2: And to concur with Scott, there would be a difference in "Teacher fired for telling friend racist joke" and "Teacher fired for making racist comment about student" with regards to the "WHERE DOES IT END??!" walking on "eggshell" paranoia.
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Jeremy perfected this 4 times, last at 02/15/2011 3:29:02 pm
scott.jpgScott - 6216 Posts
02/15/2011 @ 03:52:48 PM
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Jeremy Wrote - Today @ 02:46:48 PM
Plus no one is saying she can't speak her mind. Accepting that there can be consequences to doing so is another thing altogether.


The first post was clearly yelling fire in a crowded room. The Supreme court has ruled that this type of speech is not protected.

People don't quite understand that their employer is not bound by the first ammendment. The first ammendment does not prevent an employer from firing or repremanding an employee. Your employer is not the federal government, and can therefore fire you for things you say, and for almost (I hope I'm not being too broad here) any reason. The only things that might be ruled as wrongful termination would be if the speech was religious in nature or something, but you get my point. Free speech is a "the government cannot muzzle you" rule. It is not a "your employer must ignore everything you say even if you say it away from work" rule.
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newalex.jpgAlex - 3610 Posts
02/15/2011 @ 05:41:07 PM
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Scott Wrote - Today @ 11:34:15 AM
Alex Wrote - Yesterday @ 11:50:24 PM
Are we really better off as a society when every one is afraid to say anything that might offend someone, or would we be better off if people could speak their mind once in a while without walking on egg shells?


There's a pretty big difference between speaking your mind and saying you are going to plan another columbine. And also, there's a difference between speaking your mind and ripping your students and/or employer. Those things should be dealt with from a more professional level.


Again, my fault for mixing the two stories together, I was really referring to the teacher one there.
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2887.gifAlex - 3610 Posts
02/15/2011 @ 05:48:41 PM
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Scott Wrote - Today @ 03:52:48 PM
Jeremy Wrote - Today @ 02:46:48 PM
Plus no one is saying she can't speak her mind. Accepting that there can be consequences to doing so is another thing altogether.


The first post was clearly yelling fire in a crowded room. The Supreme court has ruled that this type of speech is not protected.


How do we even know he was in the fdl at the time (unless there were previous or subsequent posts indicating that)? He could have been on vacation in Florida and it doesn't say he gave any specifics at all (when, where, etc). I really don't think it's the same as yelling fire in a crowded room. Doing that causes instant mass hysteria, some crazy posting something on facebook shouldn't have the same effect.
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2887.gifAlex - You've got to trust your instinct, and let go of regret
02/15/2011 @ 05:59:53 PM
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Few more details of the teacher postings here http://articles.philly.com/2011-02-11/news/28350484_1_report-cards-blog-posts
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newalex.jpgAlex - 3610 Posts
02/15/2011 @ 06:09:41 PM
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Jeremy Wrote - Today @ 12:33:33 AM
Dunno if I'd go THAT far. I do remember saying at the time "we're probably not all going to like our bosses/clients/whomever someday either" so in that regard there were some lessons learned. However I think most of the "we don't like him" stemmed from his actually being a lousy teacher, and I'll take cs lessons over life lessons in a class I'm paying an ass ton for any day.


Well, I didn't mean that I want to nominate him for the teacher of the decade award, just that IMO half the class was acting like "disengaged lazy whiners" sometimes and he didn't always roll over for them, which was a good thing.
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fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 8821 Posts
02/15/2011 @ 06:28:50 PM
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Yeah, I gathered what you meant, I only objected to the "some of the most valuable" portion. There was definitely some value in working for a person who often wouldn't behave rationally, often wouldn't judge work consistently/evenly, and was in way over his head as a leader/in his position. That's half of life.

Also, in reaction to that followup, personally I think the lines between personal and "business" time are blurry enough for teachers to where it really makes no difference to me when or where those blog postings came from. The message is ok, or not. And she's doing an adequate job teaching, or not. The keyboard she used isn't important, unless of course they're alleging she frequently told her students, "Sit quietly and do whatever/nothing. I need to finish this blog post." If she blogs using down time at school, then grades papers at home, what's the difference?
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Jeremy perfected this 3 times, last at 02/15/2011 6:52:58 pm
newalex.jpgAlex - 3610 Posts
02/18/2011 @ 10:08:28 PM
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So...how about that Madison? I bet there's been some prosecutable postings on the Internets over the last 72 hours.
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