Link Stats
Added By: Jeremy
Added on: 08/23/2008 @ 1:16:47 AM
Link View Count: 417
Politics
Politics
Rate this Link
Yours:

Rated 0 times.

Obama/Biden vs McCain/Palin in '08

Sí, se puede
View External Link [www.msnbc.msn.com]
Back to Link List
face.bmpCarlos44ec - 2078 Posts
08/23/2008 @ 01:24:47 PM
 Quote this comment
emoticon
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
thumbnailCAW1I0O3.gifMatt - 3222 Posts
08/23/2008 @ 01:55:29 PM
 Quote this comment
As far as Democrats go, I've always kind of liked Joe Biden, but I'm not sure he was a good pick for Obama. Biden likes to talk, and because of this, he has a propensity to put his foot in his mouth. I think it's almost a certainty that he will end up making one or two gaffes due to this.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
matt.jpgMatt - 3222 Posts
08/23/2008 @ 02:03:06 PM
 Quote this comment
Also, I'll share with you one of my favorite "descriptions" of Biden. This was from a post a few years back (at the start of the John Roberts confirmation hearings) by Jonah Goldberg of National Review's "The Corner":

"And there's the case for Biden himself. He says interesting things, from time to time. I think he makes a fair point here and there. He was correct, for example, that Congress needed to have a real deabte over the war. I think he has some obvious verbal intelligence. But, again, what's fascinating — and what might be distracting some folks from seeing his underlying-yet-occassional smarts — is that he lets his ego and vanity get in the way. The man loves his voice so much, you'd expect him to be following it around in a grey Buick, in defiance of restraining order, as it walks home from school. He seems to think his teeth are some kind of hypnotic punctuation marks which can momentarily disorient the listener and absolve him from any of Western civilization's usual imperatives to stop talking. Listening to him speechify is like playing an intellectual game of whack-a-mole where every now and then the fuzzy head of a good point pops up from the tundra but before you can pin it down, he starts talking about how he went to the store and saw a squirrel on the way and it was brown which brings to mind Brown V. Board of Ed which most people don't understand because [TEETH FLASH] he taught Brown in his law school course and [TEETH FLASH] Mr. Chairman I'm going to get right to it and besides these aren't the droids you're looking for...."
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
scott.jpgScott - 6216 Posts
08/23/2008 @ 08:43:22 PM
 Quote this comment
The positive for Democrats in all of this is that the Obama candidacy can no longer be labeled "inexperienced". Biden has been serving longer than McCain even. And, for arguments sake, he has a son who served in Iraq, so really how can you criticize a man about the War and supporting the troops and all when that man actually has a son who served.

Personally, I like Biden too. He seems similar to McCain in that I feel like he is somewhat of a straight talker. He has never gotten the media's attention like McCain has, but all in all he seems like he speaks his mind. The description Matt posted backs this up.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
vignette.bmpCarlos44ec - "The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut by the lawnmower."
08/23/2008 @ 11:50:20 PM
 Quote this comment
my dad has a son who served in Iraq... Jeremy's dad has the same "requisite". Does that automatically give him credit?

Not to discredit Biden, just asking the question.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
scott.jpgScott - 6216 Posts
08/24/2008 @ 06:48:28 AM
 Quote this comment
It doesn't give him "credit" so to speak, but it should make the Sean Hannities of the world shut up about laying blanket statements about Democrats hating the troops (I listen to Hannity quite a bit, and believe me, whether he will admit it or not, that's how he feels). That's all I was really trying to say.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
thumbnailCAW1I0O3.gifMatt - 3222 Posts
08/24/2008 @ 01:27:16 PM
 Quote this comment
Scott Wrote - Yesterday @ 08:43:22 PM
The positive for Democrats in all of this is that the Obama candidacy can no longer be labeled "inexperienced". Biden has been serving longer than McCain even.


This may be true, but one of Obama's main points was that he wasn't a "Washington Insider" and that he was for a "new" kind of politics. Well, there are not many people alive who have been in Washington longer than Joe Biden. If John McCain is an example of the old way, so is Joe Biden.

Interesting fact I just noticed: There are 4 current members of Congress who have been serving since JFK was President, and all of them are Democrats (Byrd, Kennedy, and Inouye in the Senate; Dingell in the House). Dingell (1955) and Byrd (1959) actually go back to the Eisenhower presidency.

List of current members of the United States House of Representatives by seniority

List of current United States Senators by seniority
Rate this comment
Yours:

Total:

Rated 1 times.
Matt edited this 2 times, last at 08/24/2008 2:56:48 pm
matt.jpgMatt - Washington Bureau Chief
08/24/2008 @ 02:38:14 PM
 Quote this comment
While I'm at it, more fun with Congressional longevity.

1.) Since 1933 the State of Michigan has been represented in the U.S. House of Representatives by a Dingell. John D. Dingell Sr. served the 15th district in Michigan from 1933 until his death in 1955. His son, John D. Dingell Jr. won a special election to replace his father and served the 15th from 1955 to 1965 when redistricting merged the then 15th and 16th districts. In the 1964 primary election he defeated the incumbent representative of the then 16th district, John Lesinski, Jr., who had served since 1951 (succeeding his father, John Lesinksi Sr., who served the 16th from 1933 until his death in 1950). Dingell won the general election, and then represented the "new" 16th district until 2003, when redistricting eliminated the 16th. Now a part of a "new" 15th district, he won the 2002 election and has served the 15th up to the present. If he wins reelection this year (I assume he will), Dingell Jr. will break the all-time record for longest tenure in the House on Feb. 14 of next year.

2.) Since March 4, 1927; only 3 men have been the Class 3 Senator from Arizona. Carl T. Hayden served from 1927-1969 (this along with his 15 years in the House before becoming Senator makes him the longest serving member of Congress of all time, though soon to be passed by Robert Byrd). Hayden was followed by Barry Goldwater from 1969-1987 (he also served as the Class 1 Senator from 1953-1965). Finally, succeeding Goldwater was John McCain who has served since 1987. There are probably other instances like this, but I came across this and found it interesting in that of the 3 men, one is the longest serving member in the history of Congress, and the other two both were/are Republican candidates for the Presidency.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Total:

Rated 1 times.
Matt screwed with this 2 times, last at 08/25/2008 8:18:33 pm
scott.jpgScott - Ma'am, can you make sure your computer is turned on?
08/26/2008 @ 09:38:56 PM
 Quote this comment
Montana Governor Brian Schweitzer is a pretty good speaker. I just watched his speech at the DNC, and it was quite entertaining, and quite energetic and fun (if a political speech can be such a thing).
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
matt.jpgMatt - Ombudsman
08/26/2008 @ 11:03:24 PM
 Quote this comment
Scott Wrote - Today @ 09:38:56 PM
it was quite entertaining, and quite energetic and fun (if a political speech can be such a thing).


It can't.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
flower .jpgPackOne - 1520 Posts
08/26/2008 @ 11:21:03 PM
 Quote this comment
Hillary did what she needed to do in my opinion. If that's the way you're leaning anyway.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
jon.jpgJon - 2720 Posts
08/27/2008 @ 01:11:56 AM
 Quote this comment
Scott Wrote - Yesterday @ 09:38:56 PM
Montana Governor Brian Schweitzer is a pretty good speaker. I just watched his speech at the DNC, and it was quite entertaining, and quite energetic and fun (if a political speech can be such a thing).


I didn't like the speech, but not because of the content. You see, the Vegas over-under on number of DNC speakers wearing a bolo tie was +/- .5, and I took the under.

gov.jpg
Rate this comment
Yours:

Total:

Rated 1 times.
Jon messed with this 3 times, last at 08/27/2008 2:13:16 am
wendy.gifWendy - 163 Posts
08/27/2008 @ 12:40:52 PM
 Quote this comment
(Sorry I'm late on this thread)
Joe Biden has been a congressman longer, but I think he consciously tries really hard to portray himself as the "anti-insider" the same way Obama does - likely why Obama picked him. For example: the fact that he rides the train home to Delaware every night and doesn't live in DC. I'm not saying this will work for him or people will buy it in the general election ... but clearly somebody likes him to keep him on Capitol Hill this long.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
wendy.gifWendy - 163 Posts
08/27/2008 @ 12:45:32 PM
 Quote this comment
And, from Letterman Tuesday night:
Top Ten Things Overheard At The Democratic National Convention:

(SHOUT OUT TO WISCONSIN ON NUMBER 5!)

10. "Check it out -- Bill Clinton and John Edwards are hitting on the same woman"

9. "The decorations are made from 'John Kerry 2004' bumper stickers"

8. "I think the Chinese delegates are underage"

7. "No, Mr. President, you belong at the Republican convention"

6. "Senator Biden, do you think you'll shoot an old guy in the face?"

5. "Shut up! I'm trying to listen to Wisconsin Governor Jim Doyle"

4. No number 4 -- writer at screening of "The House Bunny"

3. "Coming up next, a look at Democratic candidates' greatest concession speeches"

2. "Yes, at midnight they're going to tase Andy Dick"

1. "Hey, it's a giant Al Gore balloon! Oh, wait. That's Al Gore"
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
Wendy screwed with this at 08/27/2008 12:45:53 pm
wendy.gifWendy - 163 Posts
08/27/2008 @ 12:46:13 PM
 Quote this comment
I love election season.
Especially the conventions.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
thumbnailCAW1I0O3.gifMatt - Washington Bureau Chief
08/27/2008 @ 06:06:42 PM
 Quote this comment
Jon Wrote - Today @ 01:11:56 AM
Scott Wrote - Yesterday @ 09:38:56 PM
Montana Governor Brian Schweitzer is a pretty good speaker. I just watched his speech at the DNC, and it was quite entertaining, and quite energetic and fun (if a political speech can be such a thing).
I didn't like the speech, but not because of the content. You see, the Vegas over-under on number of DNC speakers wearing a bolo tie was +/- .5, and I took the under.
gov.jpg



Don't feel bad, you still would have lost even if it was +/- 1.5

salazar.jpg
[Click to Enlarge]

I give you Sen. Ken Salazar of Colorado.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
Matt perfected this at 08/27/2008 6:07:39 pm
wendy.gifWendy
08/28/2008 @ 11:34:35 AM
 Quote this comment
MADISON, Wis. (AP) -- Wisconsin Gov. Jim Doyle just didn't get the joke.
Doyle was singled out in a top 10 list presented Tuesday night on the Late Show with David Letterman. The topic was "Top Ten Things Overheard at the Democratic National Convention."
Number five on the list was, "Shut up! I'm trying to listen to Wisconsin Governor Jim Doyle."
Doyle is attending the convention in Denver as part of Wisconsin's delegation. He spoke at the convention Tuesday afternoon.
Doyle said Thursday that his son sent him a link to view Letterman's delivery of the list. But Doyle says he doesn't know why Letterman singled him out.
"I don't know if it's good or bad," he said. "Nobody seemed to understand the joke and nobody laughed at it."
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
scott.jpgScott - Ma'am, can you make sure your computer is turned on?
08/28/2008 @ 12:39:06 PM
 Quote this comment
I'll be honest, I didn't really get it either.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
jeremy.jpgJeremy - 8821 Posts
08/28/2008 @ 12:40:54 PM
 Quote this comment
I'm not sure there's anything to "get".
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
vignette.bmpCarlos44ec - What the F@#$ am I being arrested fo?
08/28/2008 @ 12:52:45 PM
 Quote this comment
Not funny? Letterman? hmm... yeah, it's been a few years...
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 8821 Posts
08/28/2008 @ 12:59:54 PM
 Quote this comment
Well I wasn't commenting on if it was or wasn't funny, just that there's not necessarily some deeper meaning. I suspect they just chose one of the lesser known people at random.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
vignette.bmpCarlos44ec - 2078 Posts
08/28/2008 @ 01:01:46 PM
 Quote this comment
I thought Doyle was once the likely candidate for something bigger?

Not like Pawlentysucks and the Veep deal, or like Thompson and HLS.. but something...
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
thumbnailCAW1I0O3.gifMatt - Ombudsman
08/28/2008 @ 01:36:42 PM
 Quote this comment
Jeremy Wrote - Today @ 12:40:54 PM
I'm not sure there's anything to "get".


Well there is something to "get", but it doesn't really have anything to do with Doyle (like you said, they probably just picked him from the many minor speakers that day).

The joke is that nobody would actually say that, because nobody cares about the "minor" speeches. I guess nobody told Doyle that he wasn't important.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
jeremy.jpgJeremy - 8821 Posts
08/28/2008 @ 02:05:27 PM
 Quote this comment
Right, that's obvious, I just don't think there's anything to "get" about why it's Doyle specifically, other than the national media's long standing hatred of Wisconsin.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
jon.jpgJon - 2720 Posts
08/28/2008 @ 02:46:39 PM
 Quote this comment
By the way, that picture of Gov. Shweitzer that I put in my previous comment? Wayyyyyyyy to difficult to locate.
Most of the major news websites, some minor ones, and in fact the DNC's own site, have photo galleries and photo slideshows of the convention. I went looking for a picture of this guy so I could include a visual, but no one had one. And it wasn't because it was so recent either, because he spoke right before Hillary, and of course Hillary's photos were already posted. As were, in many cases, the photos of a ton of minor speakers from throughout the day, Jim Doyle included.
If I didn't know any better, and I barely do, I'd say it's a vast media conspiracy to erase from photographic record the fact that the prime time lead-in to Hillary Clinton dared to dress in something other than the standard suit and tie. Maybe they thought it would confuse the masses. "Is that a political convention or a cattle auction?"

Anyway, I ended up getting the photo off a liberal blog site. I'm pretty sure though, that it's not even technically a photo, but a still from a video of the speech.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
matt.jpgMatt - 3222 Posts
08/28/2008 @ 02:55:52 PM
 Quote this comment
Yeah, that was sort of the case when I was looking for a photo of Sen. Salazar, but then I discovered that if you search for the name on Yahoo! News, at the top of the results page are the most recent photos from the wire services about the subject.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
Matt screwed with this at 08/28/2008 3:03:38 pm
newalex.jpgAlex - 3610 Posts
08/28/2008 @ 09:26:33 PM
 Quote this comment
Good, I want to be on my own.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
jon.jpgJon - 1000000 posts (and counting!)
08/28/2008 @ 09:51:09 PM
 Quote this comment
I want to preface this comment with the fact that I know politicians play dirty on both sides and they pretty much all distort the quotes of others and all that. But I'm bringing this example up because I saw it "start to finish" in a sense, because I saw and heard the actual statement, the context and then the other side's response.

A transcript from the Saddleback Church forum (in bold):

WARREN: No, no, actually, this is great because I may actually get to ask you a couple of extra questions, which are good. They're the "lightning bonus round" actually. (LAUGHTER)

OK, on taxes, define "rich." Everybody talks about taxing the rich, but not the poor, the middle class. At what point -- give me a number, give me a specific number -- where do you move from middle class to rich?

Is it $100,000, is it $50,000, is it $200,000? How does anybody know if we don't know what the standards are?

MCCAIN: Some of the richest people I've ever known in my life are the most unhappy. I think that rich should be defined by a home, a good job, an education and the ability to hand to our children a more prosperous and safer world than the one that we inherited.

I don't want to take any money from the rich -- I want everybody to get rich.

(LAUGHTER)

I don't believe in class warfare or re-distribution of the wealth. But I can tell you, for example, there are small businessmen and women who are working 16 hours a day, seven days a week that some people would classify as -- quote -- "rich," my friends, and want to raise their taxes and want to raise their payroll taxes.

Let's have -- keep taxes low. Let's give every family in America a $7,000 tax credit for every child they have. Let's give them a $5,000 refundable tax credit to go out and get the health insurance of their choice. Let's not have the government take over the health care system in America.

(APPLAUSE)

So, I think if you are just talking about income, how about $5 million?

(LAUGHTER)

But seriously, I don't think you can -- I don't think seriously that -- the point is that I'm trying to make here, seriously -- and I'm sure that comment will be distorted -- but the point is that we want to keep people's taxes low and increase revenues.

And, my friend, it was not taxes that mattered in America in the last several years. It was spending. Spending got completely out of control. We spent money in way that mortgaged our kids' futures.


OK, I gave a long segment there, but the part of interest is where he responds, jokingly, with a dollar amount of 5 million. You can think whatever you want of the answer and how he gave it and all that, but if anyone was watching, or even reading this transcript, it was clear the dollar amount was a joke. He even commented on how it would probably be distorted and used against him.

Anyway, since I watched that happen, I've heard the 5 million referred to in democratic ads and the like, usually like "McCain thinks middle class is under 5 million a year."
But I still gave Obama the benefit of the doubt because it wasn't him or his campaign directly when I first heard it.
But in no less than his acceptance speech tonight, Obama actually brought it up and of course used it completely out of context. If I'm not mistaken, Biden, in his short time as running mate, has already referenced it at least once also.

And hey, if they want to make a case that McCain would tax "the rich" less than Obama would, I have no problem with them making that case. I just wish they would use actual examples to back them up.

I'm not so naive to think this doesn't happen all the time on both sides, so no one needs to tell me all the stuff McCain has done and all that. I just wanted to tell the story since I watched it develop "first-hand" so to speak. It's frustrating no matter who is doing it.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
Jon edited this 7 times, last at 08/28/2008 9:58:57 pm
jeremy.jpgJeremy - 8821 Posts
08/28/2008 @ 10:08:39 PM
 Quote this comment
Even if it wasn't a joke, is the answer really that unreasonable? "Middle class" is an ill-definable thing anyway. Let's say $300,000 is the max that the dems would give. The flip side would be that they consider "Rich" to be people making $300,001, $3,000,000 or $300,000,00, which is at least as stupid to "lump together". There's obviously a huge gulf between a two income family, in New York/LA perhaps, that happens to tip the $300,000 mark and a single executive who couldn't spend his salary if he tried.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
Jeremy perfected this 2 times, last at 08/28/2008 10:12:20 pm
2887.gifAlex - 3610 Posts
08/28/2008 @ 10:11:30 PM
 Quote this comment
I actually thought Obama's speech was pretty good. But I still think real change won't happen without a 3rd party.

"golf" when talking about rich, Freudian misspelling much?

So flat tax then right?
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
jon.jpgJon - 2720 Posts
08/28/2008 @ 10:16:21 PM
 Quote this comment
Jeremy Wrote - Today @ 10:08:39 PM
"Middle class" is an ill-definable thing anyway.


That reminded me, I think I heard one time, and I have no documentation for this so feel free to prove me wrong, how way more people consider themselves middle class than more objective numbers based classification would or something like that. Which obviously, doesn't mean that they're wrong necessarily or that other standards are necessarily wrong. But if you ever hear how politicians and marketers aim things at middle class so much, it might explain why.

I think I heard the same sort of thing about being from the "midwest." People from ohio through colorado and minnesota through texas identify themselves as midwesterners. And of course that helps them take pride in their midwestern values.

But maybe I'm just restating a bunch of myths. Maybe I'll go check.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
Jon messed with this at 08/28/2008 10:18:57 pm
thumbnailCAW1I0O3.gifMatt - 3222 Posts
08/28/2008 @ 10:18:08 PM
 Quote this comment
Jon Wrote - Today @ 09:51:09 PM
It's frustrating no matter who is doing it.


It is. Of course only one of them is running as the exemplar of a "new" kind of politics.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
Matt perfected this at 08/28/2008 10:19:59 pm
matt.jpgMatt - Washington Bureau Chief
08/28/2008 @ 10:21:10 PM
 Quote this comment
Jon Wrote - Today @ 10:16:21 PM
Jeremy Wrote - Today @ 10:08:39 PM
"Middle class" is an ill-definable thing anyway.
That reminded me, I think I heard one time, and I have no documentation for this so feel free to prove me wrong, how way more people consider themselves middle class than more objective numbers based classification would or something like that.


I've heard that too.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 8821 Posts
08/28/2008 @ 10:22:34 PM
 Quote this comment
Flat tax is one of those ideas that sounds like it would be the fairest, but just wouldn't work in practice. If you make $10,000 a year and I make $100,000 and the rate is 10% you would pay $1000 and I would pay $10,000. The problem is that that $1000 is exponentially more important to you than my 10 grand is because $90,000 a year is exponentially easier to live off of than $9,000. It's not really "Flat" in its effect because there's a base amount it takes to live.

Though, maybe I'm ignorant in what a "flat tax" would mean.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
jeremy.jpgJeremy - Always thinking of, but never about, the children.
08/28/2008 @ 10:24:49 PM
 Quote this comment
Jon Wrote - Today @ 10:16:21 PM
Jeremy Wrote - Today @ 10:08:39 PM
"Middle class" is an ill-definable thing anyway.


That reminded me, I think I heard one time, and I have no documentation for this so feel free to prove me wrong, how way more people consider themselves middle class than more objective numbers based classification would or something like that. Which obviously, doesn't mean that they're wrong necessarily or that other standards are necessarily wrong. But if you ever hear how politicians and marketers aim things at middle class so much, it might explain why.

I think I heard the same sort of thing about being from the "midwest." People from ohio through colorado and minnesota through texas identify themselves as midwesterners. And of course that helps them take pride in their midwestern values.

But maybe I'm just restating a bunch of myths. Maybe I'll go check.


You're definitely right about the Midwest thing. When asked to defined the "Midwest" people almost always put their state at the "heart" and radiated out from there. Even people on the East Coast.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
Jeremy messed with this at 08/28/2008 10:24:56 pm
jon.jpgJon - 2720 Posts
08/28/2008 @ 10:27:09 PM
 Quote this comment
Jeremy Wrote - Today @ 10:24:49 PM
You're definitely right about the Midwest thing. When asked to defined the "Midwest" people almost always put their state at the "heart" and radiated out from there. Even people on the East Coast.


Well, for full disclosure, I think I heard the midwestern thing from you, so we still probably need another source.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Total:

Rated 1 times.
thumbnailCAW1I0O3.gifMatt - 3222 Posts
08/28/2008 @ 10:34:18 PM
 Quote this comment
Jeremy Wrote - Today @ 10:22:34 PM
Flat tax is one of those ideas that sounds like it would be the fairest, but just wouldn't work in practice. If you make $10,000 a year and I make $100,000 and the rate is 10% you would pay $1000 and I would pay $10,000. The problem is that that $1000 is exponentially more important to you than my 10 grand is because $90,000 a year is exponentially easier to live off of than $9,000. It's not really "Flat" in its effect because there's a base amount it takes to live. Though, maybe I'm ignorant in what a "flat tax" would mean.


Yeah, in the world of economics this is classified as a regressive tax since it taxes a higher percentage of your income the "poorer" you are. Sales taxes fit in here as well.

On the flip side, current income taxes, of course, are progressive since the "richer" pay a larger percent of their incomes as taxes than the "poor" do.

I think there can be taxes that are neither (I want to say property taxes, but I'm not sure).
Rate this comment
Yours:

Total:

Rated 2 times.
thumbnailCAW1I0O3.gifMatt - 3222 Posts
08/28/2008 @ 10:39:55 PM
 Quote this comment
Also, I'm not sure of the details of any of the flat tax plans out there, but I know that under the fair tax proposal (consumption tax, or in other words, a national sales tax) they would have some sort of "prebate" where everyone would get money to offset the estimated amount of taxes that would be associated with an income at the poverty line. This way, the poor wouldn't pay any tax at all.

Like I said, I'm not familiar with any flat tax proposals out their, but there could be various rebates and stuff like this to offset the regressivenes of the flat tax.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
scott.jpgScott - On your mark...get set...Terrible!
08/29/2008 @ 06:39:30 AM
 Quote this comment
Jon Wrote - Yesterday @ 10:51:09 PM
I want to preface this comment with the fact that I know politicians play dirty on both sides and they pretty much all distort the quotes of others and all that. But I'm bringing this example up because I saw it "start to finish" in a sense, because I saw and heard the actual statement, the context and then the other side's response. A transcript from the Saddleback .


Jon, I agree completely. I watched that Saddleback interview in its entirety with both candidates. Obama's use of McCain's "$5 Million" mark for middle class is, in my opinion, a shameless, deliberate distortion of something McCain said as a joke simply because he did not want to define what "rich" is.

In other news, I really really liked that Saddleback interview. That is probably the best debate we see this entire political season.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
wendy.gifWendy - 163 Posts
08/29/2008 @ 10:57:54 AM
 Quote this comment
No comments on McCain choosing Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin as VP?
It's 11am already!
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
jeremy.jpgJeremy - 8821 Posts
08/29/2008 @ 11:11:52 AM
 Quote this comment
I guess history will be made either way. Courting angry Hillary supporters much?
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 8821 Posts
08/29/2008 @ 11:26:33 AM
 Quote this comment
Each party chose a running mate from a state worth 3 electoral college votes that never goes the other party's way anyway. Well played.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Total:

Rated 1 times.
wendy.gifWendy - 163 Posts
08/29/2008 @ 12:23:42 PM
 Quote this comment
Jeremy Wrote - Today @ 11:11:52 AM
I guess history will be made either way. Courting angry Hillary supporters much?


I can't imagine too many Hillary supporters backing a woman who's that pro-gun and pro-life.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
jeremy.jpgJeremy - I believe virtually everything I read.
08/29/2008 @ 12:30:23 PM
 Quote this comment
I don't know, some of those people interviewed are pretty stupid.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Total:

Rated 1 times.
fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 8821 Posts
08/29/2008 @ 12:37:18 PM
 Quote this comment
Alex Wrote - Yesterday @ 09:26:33 PM
Good, I want to be on my own.


Maybe I'm missing something obvious without re-reading the whole thread, but what the hell does this mean? What are you even talking about?
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
thumbnailCAW1I0O3.gifMatt - 3222 Posts
08/29/2008 @ 01:01:32 PM
 Quote this comment
Jeremy Wrote - Today @ 12:37:18 PM
Alex Wrote - Yesterday @ 09:26:33 PM
Good, I want to be on my own.
Maybe I'm missing something obvious without re-reading the whole thread, but what the hell does this mean? What are you even talking about?


I believe Obama made a comment in his speech about how Bush/McCain/GOP's government just says "You are on your own" or something to that effect.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
matt.jpgMatt - 3222 Posts
08/29/2008 @ 01:06:40 PM
 Quote this comment
Wendy Wrote - Today @ 12:23:42 PM
Jeremy Wrote - Today @ 11:11:52 AM
I guess history will be made either way. Courting angry Hillary supporters much?
I can't imagine too many Hillary supporters backing a woman who's that pro-gun and pro-life.


Well most probably won't, but its about picking away at the margins. There are probably some independents who supported Clinton, but were unsure about Obama. This pick may help sway some of those.

Also, it will help McCain shore up the conservative base, as Palin has solid conservative credentials and is also very reform minded.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
jeremy.jpgJeremy - Robots don't say 'ye'
08/29/2008 @ 01:10:42 PM
 Quote this comment
Scott Wrote - Today @ 06:39:30 AM
Jon Wrote - Yesterday @ 09:51:09 PM
I want to preface this comment with the fact that I know politicians play dirty on both sides and they pretty much all distort the quotes of others and all that. But I'm bringing this example up because I saw it "start to finish" in a sense, because I saw and heard the actual statement, the context and then the other side's response. A transcript from the Saddleback .


Jon, I agree completely. I watched that Saddleback interview in its entirety with both candidates. Obama's use of McCain's "$5 Million" mark for middle class is, in my opinion, a shameless, deliberate distortion of something McCain said as a joke simply because he did not want to define what "rich" is.

In other news, I really really liked that Saddleback interview. That is probably the best debate we see this entire political season.


Yeah, it seems like there's one or two comments in every election that are clearly a joke, or whatever, and the person actually comments on the fact that it's going to be taken out of context, and their opponent does indeed take it and run with it, with no context, shame, or sense of irony.

Edit: I guess you could argue that on some level that WAS still the first number that popped into McCain's head, which if you just blurt out an answer without thinking is generally how you feel. Even that is dubious, because it sounds from the context, and "stage direction" Jon included, that it was an intentional joke. (Note, it's possible he said it not joking, then played along when other people laughed at the "absurdity", but it doesn't sound like that's what happened either.) I think I'll see if I can find some video and watch it myself.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
Jeremy screwed with this 5 times, last at 08/29/2008 1:34:03 pm
jeremy.jpgJeremy - 1.21 Gigawatts!?!?
08/29/2008 @ 01:49:45 PM
 Quote this comment
This is a tad old, but it makes mention of what Jon was getting at:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21272238/

Congress asked its research service to come up with a definition of middle class.

The researchers started by looking at income levels. Based on 2005 Census Bureau reports, some 40 percent of the nearly 115 million households in the U.S. earned less than $36,000 a year. That represented just 12 percent of all income. The 40 percent on the next rung up the economic ladder took in between $36,000 and $91,705 — or about 37.6 percent of all income. The top 20 percent, who made $91,705 or more, collected half of all income.

But those numbers don’t adequately reflect the state of mind of those who consider themselves middle class. Surveys have shown that, while people consider $40,000 a year to be the low end of what it takes to buy a middle-class life, some people who make as much as $200,000 a year still consider themselves middle class, the researchers said.


Edit: So where do you define middle class anyway? Is it even definable? How could it not be region specific? $91,705 for a household isn't even THAT big of a deal in Eau Claire, WI, I don't know if that amount would even be a living wage in New York City for a small family. Having that be the cut off for "rich" is just as stupid as $5 million. (I know that's not what the article was trying to do with their numbers, I'm just saying.)
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
Jeremy edited this 5 times, last at 08/29/2008 2:08:32 pm
matt.jpgMatt - Washington Bureau Chief
08/29/2008 @ 02:09:43 PM
 Quote this comment
If you have a Wii, you're rich. So Jeremy and Sarah....higher taxes for you. emoticon
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
Matt screwed with this at 08/29/2008 2:11:09 pm
fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 8821 Posts
08/29/2008 @ 02:32:49 PM
 Quote this comment
It's not like we had to slip a loading dock worker 10 grand to get one before they put it on the shelves. We just had to buy a bundle, then promptly returned all the games we wouldn't have bought anyway.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
thumbnailCAW1I0O3.gifMatt - 3222 Posts
08/29/2008 @ 02:38:42 PM
 Quote this comment
Nope, windfall Wii tax for you.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
thumbnailCAW1I0O3.gifMatt - Washington Bureau Chief
08/29/2008 @ 02:49:18 PM
 Quote this comment
Jeremy Wrote - Today @ 01:49:45 PM
So where do you define middle class anyway? Is it even definable?


Back to being serious, I don't think it really is definable. Obviously, you can say someone making $10,000/yr. isn't, and someone making $5,000,000 isn't, but the boundries are more difficult. It seems to be more of a state of mind type of thing, than anything else.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
jeremy.jpgJeremy - As Seen On The Internet
08/29/2008 @ 02:56:38 PM
 Quote this comment
I do know one thing though. The amount of money between just scraping by paycheck to paycheck and living comfortably is a surprisingly small amount.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
scott.jpgScott - 6216 Posts
08/29/2008 @ 07:14:18 PM
 Quote this comment
Jeremy Wrote - Today @ 02:10:42 PM
Scott Wrote - Today @ 07:39:30 AM
Jon Wrote - Yesterday @ 10:51:09 PM
I want to preface this comment with the fact that I know politicians play dirty on both sides and they pretty much all distort the quotes of others and all that. But I'm bringing this example up because I saw it "start to finish" in a sense, because I saw and heard the actual statement, the context and then the other side's response. A transcript from the Saddleback .
Jon, I agree completely. I watched that Saddleback interview in its entirety with both candidates. Obama's use of McCain's "$5 Million" mark for middle class is, in my opinion, a shameless, deliberate distortion of something McCain said as a joke simply because he did not want to define what "rich" is. In other news, I really really liked that Saddleback interview. That is probably the best debate we see this entire political season.
Yeah, it seems like there's one or two comments in every election that are clearly a joke, or whatever, and the person actually comments on the fact that it's going to be taken out of context, and their opponent does indeed take it and run with it, with no context, shame, or sense of irony. Edit: I guess you could argue that on some level that WAS still the first number that popped into McCain's head, which if you just blurt out an answer without thinking is generally how you feel. Even that is dubious, because it sounds from the context, and "stage direction" Jon included, that it was an intentional joke. (Note, it's possible he said it not joking, then played along when other people laughed at the "absurdity", but it doesn't sound like that's what happened either.) I think I'll see if I can find some video and watch it myself.


In my opinion hearing it first hand it did indeed sound like a joke from the beginning.
Rate this comment
Yours:

Rated 0 times.
Leave a Comment of your very own
Name:
Comment:
Verify this code
Verify the Code in this box, or sign in, to post a comment.
click me!
There's an emoticon for how you feel!
click me!
My Files
Sign up, or login, to be able to upload files for Nutcan.com users to see.