2014 MLB Season - Pre All-Star Edition

04/09/2014 9:08 am
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"Put me in coach..."
scott.jpgScott - 6225 Posts
04/09/2014 @ 09:20:44 AM
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Will you Boo Ryan Braun?

Do these poll questions seem to expose some hypocrisy among sports fans? 54% of respondents said they would/will boo Braun when he plays at their home stadium. Yet 63% of respondents said they would not boo him if he was on their team. I suppose I can understand why someone would boo a player who did something as bad Braun did. I hope I'm not one of those fans that would do that, but I won't come down too hard on someone for it, even if I think it's stupid (if the drug collector can forgive him and have him and his now wife over for dinner, I think the rest of us are in a bit of a weak position to hold it against him to harshly). What I can't understand--and this poll to me suggests that fans are more obviously hypocritcal for doing so--are the fans who will smear Brewer fans for supporting the guy. The reaction on Twitter after the Brewers home opener to Braun getting a supportive ovation from his home fans who has reached out to and apologized to personally (some of whom actually person-to-person) was nothing short of mockery and utter disdain (and not just from average Joe twitter user, but some holier than thou national pundits or bloggers) to the home fans who have chosen to move on if not outright forgive. What this suggests is that the same people who will boo Braun and dengegrate his supporters are likely to behave the same way as the targets of their disrespect should the player in question be wearing the uniform that they care about.

On a related note, I hope Braun gets booed a lot this season, because apparently that's his energy source now.

edit: although I suppose the flip side is that Brewer fans probably wouldn't be below booing if the player in question was a Cubs fan, so this isn't a "Brewer fans are better than anyone else" thing (although, they probably are morally superior to fans in New York or New Jersey, but that's probably a different story). My point is that people are really quick to judge and slam and hate when they are viewing things from the outside, but when it comes to their own, whether it is a sports team or a family member, their reaction will likely be much much different.
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Scott messed with this at 04/09/2014 9:27:13 am
scott.jpgScott - 6225 Posts
04/11/2014 @ 10:55:38 AM
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http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:10766501

In lieu of the Josh Hamilton injury from sliding into first base on a routine throw to first, this debate picked up. The usual arguement of "why do guys slide into first" was made, which seems to be the conventional argument. Harold Reynolds, on MLB Network, on the otherhand, had this idea that slide into first base is a smart move if you do it correctly, because in his view, it is indeed faster to slide into first than it is to keep running. At the time, he made no distinction between sliding to avoid a tag and sliding just to slide.

Anyway, I love throwing some science at at a "debate" like this one.

note: why does the video not embed in my post when I copy the link to embed it?
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Scott messed with this 4 times, last at 04/11/2014 10:57:46 am
scott.jpgScott - 6225 Posts
04/15/2014 @ 12:48:50 PM
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Power Rankings?

So I'll start by saying I could care less about MLB power rankings, and the results of these particular power rankings are a big part of the reason why apparently. So the Brewers with the best record in baseball coming off of 3 consecutive sweeps (1 sweep of the World Champs, 1 sweep of another 2013 playoff team, and another sweep on the road). They have the best pitching staff in baseball from a purely statistical viewpoint (best era, starting pitching era and bullpen era, among other categories), and have an above average offense, in addition to the best run differential in the game. Ok, so are the best team in the baseball? It's hard to tell this early in the season, but they certainly are playing the best baseball so far this season. So where does Fox Sports rank them? 8th? Ok, so I understand that this early in the season, the pre-season rankings and "how good we think they'll be" rankings still factor in a little bit, and 13 games does not a season make. So perhaps there are teams ahead of them that have lineups and rotations that look to be more prepared for the longhaul and looked better overall on paper before the season started, leading one to believe the while the Brewers hot start is impressive, it isn't indicative of where they are going to end up. That could make sense except for the team in the number 1 spot. The Ray, at 7-7, are ranked as the best team in baseball. Weird, since they have the 3rd best record in their own division. And even the "they seem good on paper and are built to sustain" idea is a mess given the description of their ranking: The Rays’ depth will be tested early as they’re down two starting pitchers after Matt Moore and Alex Cobb were both placed on the disabled list within a week of each other. So a team with the 15th best record in baseball, 24th in runs scored, and 13th in runs allowed, who has already lost 2 of their starting pitchers for at least 2 weeks is the best team in the Majors? Or did the Fox Sports voters just roll dice and the Rays won the Power Ranking lottery this week? Based on this, if I'm watching Fox Sports anything and the announcers says "swing and a basehit to right", I should strongly consider checking another source to make sure that there truly was a ball put in play and a runner safe on a base, should I not?
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Scott messed with this at 04/15/2014 12:49:46 pm
thumbnailCAW1I0O3.gifMatt - 3354 Posts
04/15/2014 @ 02:46:24 PM
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Since we're talking about the Brewers and Fox Sports: http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/milwaukee-brewers-winning-streak-projections-playoffs-chances-041514

I'm not sure if this article is supposed to make Brewer fans feel better or worse after reading it.
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scott.jpgScott - 6225 Posts
04/21/2014 @ 12:23:15 PM
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What actually transpired Sunday in Pittsburgh:
A batter for the Brewers hits a long fly ball to center field, thinking it's going to be a flyball out (his words), he trots out of the battersbox. When he realizes that it wasn't caught, he hustles into 3rd for a triple. 2nd year pitcher (who has just barely more MLB experience than I do) for the Pirates barks at the batter (who is currently lying on the ground after the slide) for showboating (pitcher denies dropping an f-bomb, but video/audio evidence proves otherwise). Words are exchanged between the two, and the Pirates bench empties with a bench player coming to blows with the runner before tackling him to the ground. Said bench player, still practically on top of the runner, is peeled off by a Brewer player and subsequently clocked between the eyes.

What the national media apparently saw:
Carlos Gomez is an out of control maniac who provoked the singlehandedly caused the pirates to come to the aid of their poor pitcher who felt disrespected by a guy who nearly hit his pitch out of the park.

Seriously, though: Gomez's action out of the box was literally what he does every time he hits a fly ball somewhere, not to mention it was a virtual identical slow trot that Andrew McCutchen did the night before on a double that he hit off the wall. In his post game comments, Gomez brought up the incident he started in Atlanta last year and said he was sorry for that one and that it was stupid, but he said this time he has nothing to apologize for because he really did nothing wrong. I think the Pirates are just upset that they now have lost 6 of 7 to the Brewers so far this year.

If things are fair:
If Gomez gets suspended, it should only be for 1 game (no punches, and wasn't the instigator), and Gerrit Cole needs to get suspended for the same number of games (although he's a pitcher, so it's hardly fair; he'd just serve it on a day he wasn't pitching anyway). Martin Maldonado will likely get 3-5 games for landing a punch right between Travis Snider eyes, but the suspension for Snider should be no fewer than the number of games Maldy is suspended. The entire thing would most likely have fizzled to nothing had Snider not roared in from off the bench "like a superhero" (Gomez's words).
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Scott perfected this 2 times, last at 04/21/2014 12:31:49 pm
scott.jpgScott - Ma'am, can you make sure your computer is turned on?
04/21/2014 @ 12:24:26 PM
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Matt Wrote - 04/15/2014 @ 02:46:24 PM
Since we're talking about the Brewers and Fox Sports: http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/milwaukee-brewers-winning-streak-projections-playoffs-chances-041514

I'm not sure if this article is supposed to make Brewer fans feel better or worse after reading it.


The Brewers didn't have any legitimate cy young candidates in 2011 either, and they won 96 games that year.
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scott.jpgScott - 6225 Posts
04/21/2014 @ 12:39:04 PM
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While we're on the subject of baseball brawls, there should be a simple rule that would make these go away fairly innocently: If you are currently in the lineup and you leave the dugout when some altercation breaks out, it is an automatic 1 game suspension. If you engage a player on the field in anyway, it is an automatic 5 game suspension.

He's my reasoning. In a case where there is one offensive player on the field, the fielding team already has a 9-1 advantage. What is Gomez going to do that can't be handled by the severe numbers mismatch that already exists. If the batting team wants to leave the dugout essentially to defend their player, the only ones that can do so should be those that are currently in the lineup. That way, you never have more than 9 guys from each team on the field, and you minimize any yahoos like Travis Snider coming out of nowhere trying to pick a fight. This case was really a case where two players got into a heated argument, and it looked like it was calming down before the benches cleared, and clearly before Snider went all kung fu on Gomez.
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scott.jpgScott - Get Up! Get outta here! Gone!
04/22/2014 @ 10:33:47 AM
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A fairly flattering article about Carlos Gomez, from Yahoo Sports. The more I watch Carlos Gomez play, the more I really really like him, as a player and, from what I can tell, a person. He is fun to watch because he looks like he is having so much fun on the field. He isn't an "in your face" guy, at least not the way someone like Nyjer Morgan is. He is friendly, he is confident, he is energetic, and he is passionate. Frankly, what he brings to the game is nothing but good (aside from the temper that he has shown on a couple of unfortunate incidents). In fact, players and commentators everywhere should be applauding his initial reaction to a 2nd year pitcher getting in his face about some unwritten rule that he barely knows anything about.

And as far as Gomez supposed "showboating" or "hotdogging" a ball that ended up not being a homerun (he denies that was what he was doing, by the way; he says--and his body language seems to support it--that he thought the ball was going to be caught), has anyone ever seen Gomez run out a home run? He makes it around the bases on an out of the park homerun faster than most guys make it around on an inside the park homer.
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - I hate our freedoms
04/22/2014 @ 09:55:43 PM
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Whether or not you believe Gomez, who often watches his home runs way too long, that this one time was not his intention (a fairly dubious claim given his telling "bat toss", and piss poor excuse anyway given that even a modest effort, for which there's no reason not to give, is an inside the park homerun for a guy half his speed) it's reasonable to see that anyone watching his actions would conclude he was showboating, which, in that respect, is all that matters. Gomez does just naturally have a violent swing that makes for a "cockier" look when he connects, but, again, it's not hard to "see what the opponent sees" there.

So here's the timeline as I see it:

1) Gomez showboats, or comes so close to something any reasonable person could easily take that way it it's a moot point
2) Pirates pitcher says something, not even particularly close to Gomez, other than his job was to cover the overthrow at third. Maybe he said a naughty word, maybe it was another guy, but I don't see why that matters.
3) Gomez takes off his helmet, responds to whatever was said, and is the first to leave where he's supposed to be.
4) Gomez is restrained by, and gets physical with, an umpire.
5) Gomez is the first to throw a punch (several)
6) When the Pirates retaliate following Gomez's several haymakers, Gomez bails and then Gomez is barely tripped let alone tackled, or body slammed, or whatever you've described it as when he meets up with a Pirate. They tangle arms, then Gomez attempts to bring a double armed hammer down on the guy, and the guy puts his arms up. This probably throws Gomez off balance, and the general collision knocks him down.
7) General bedlam, Gomez rolls over and basically gets out of there. Weeks comes in to defend him. Some Brewer puts some Brewer in a headlock and throws him down.

I'm all for defending your guys and all, but come on son. NO PUNCHES??!?

Gomez got the ball rolling with flipping his bat, and watching a ball hit a mile in the air and 6 inches shy of a homerun. Even if you buy his explanation that he thought it was a routine fly out, surely you can see how that would look, yes? Then a Pirate says some words. So, at this point, I think you have a dubious case that Gomez "wasn't the instigator", or at least a 50/50 contributor in it. Even if you want to assign no blame to Gomez up until now, Gomez CLEARLY was the one that "went to 11" and makes this an incident, as opposed to some words, by leaving third. Gomez makes it a physical altercation first, as opposed to some misunderstanding, and some more words, while being held back by others. Gomez punches first, thus taking it from vague shoving and chest thumping these so often are, into a flat out fight.

If you want to defend Gomez as not some kind of scourge on baseball, fine, but it sounds like you're trying to paint him as not only having the smaller amount of blame here, but basically being blameless. I just don't see it. Gomez made this everything is was except for a half sentence, and one could argue he "earned" that half sentence.

http://m.mlb.com/video/v32232541/milpit-benches-clear-after-gomez-triples-in-the-3rd
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Jeremy edited this 13 times, last at 04/23/2014 11:46:54 am
scott.jpgScott - 6225 Posts
04/23/2014 @ 08:00:44 AM
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If gomez's actions were "showboating" then he showboats singles, doubles, triples, walks, flyouts... My point is, the "bat-flip" is pretty much the way he lets go of his bat every time he makes contact with a baseball. Couple that with the fact that Coles own teammate, Andrew McCutchen, is a much worse offender than Gomez when it comes to watching home runs, and he even did that very same "watch it fly" on a double off the wall the night before. So the Brewers should start a fight the next time they face the Pirates and they'll get off scott free because McCutchen is asking for a fight because he watches his hits, right? And Cole approached Gomez with his chirping. He wasn't saying it from the mound. He was seeking out Gomez to give him a piece of his mind. He should certainly be held responsible for SOMETHING based on the fact that his deliberate actions were what sparked everything. My point about that is this: You'd be hard pressed to convince me that a guy who watches a homerun (or close, if that is what he was doing) is an intentional act to piss someone off. If someone thinks that, especially with Gomez, then they've got an agenda. But that being said, Cole was clearly asking to start something by his actions.

And I'm not sure what you are seeing in that video, but Snider was clearly the one who escalated things. Things are relatively calm until Snider basically tracks down Gomez until he and gomez come to blows, with Snider being the one who put Gomez in an MMA tackdown. But if you don't have a problem with a guy coming off the bench and starting a fight with something, this discussion might not get very far.

Regarding who was the instigator: If the schoolyard bully starts picking on a kid, and the kid stands up for himself, is the kid being picked on the instigator? Gomez was provoked and baited repeatedly by Cole and then Snider (who had absolutely no business being anywhere near Gomez). Viturally nothing in the world was going on until Snider got involved; it was an argument (albeit somewhat heated) between two players. That in my opinion makes Snider if not 100% responsible, then at least 75%. And frankly, I have little sympathy for Snider and getting decked. When you instigate a fight and end up on top of the guy who are fighting, you're again like the schoolyard bully that cries to the teacher the minute your victim fights back. There was no "brawl" until Snider got involved. Explain to me how that statement is wrong.

We'll probably end up agreeing to disagree, but I don't really agree with much or any of your assessment; especially since your timeline doesn't mention anything about Snider (between 4 and 5 it should say something about Snider deliberately seeking out Gomez and obviously saying something set him off). Gomez flipped his bat and his action was misinterpreted by a 2nd year pitcher who decided to name himself the chief officer of the baseball morality police (who by the way admitted after the game that he had no business approaching Gomez in the first place). Other than Gomez's reaction (which I'll admit could have been calmer, certainly) to being baited at least twice, I place virtually no blame on him at all. The only thing he is truly is guilty of (other than some stupid unwritten rule that 75% of players violate and that Gomez has hardly even guilty of breaking this time) was reacting to a pitcher who had no business getting spouting off.

The headline on Baseball Tonight's link to the annoucement of the suspensions was "Gomez gets 3 games for starting a brawl." That's a flat out lie. Like I said before, there was no "brawl" until some bench player gets up in Gomez's face.

note: this comment contains a bit of a ramble, so if I repeated myself within the post or even within the same paragraph, I apologize.
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Scott perfected this 2 times, last at 04/23/2014 8:10:56 am
scott.jpgScott - Get Up! Get outta here! Gone!
04/23/2014 @ 08:13:56 AM
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One more related comment; at this point I'm not all that upset about Gomez getting suspended. I wouldn't be surprised if upon appeal it is reduced to 2 games or 1 game. At this point, however, I'm upset that Snider was disciplined less than Gomez was. I'm not sure if I've this yet, but it seems clear to me that Snider was the one got the whole thing started (at least the part that lead to anyone getting suspended). Basically, if Snider doesn't do his thing, there are no punches, no ejections, and no suspensions, and Snider saves himself from getting punched in the face.
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scott.jpgScott - 6225 Posts
04/23/2014 @ 08:23:35 AM
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Watching the video again, I honestly don't think the action that Gomez makes after Snider baited him was Gomez throwing punches. Personally I think he is trying to free himself from umpire's restraint, like an escape move (maybe that in and of itself is wrong, but but his suspension announcement made no comment about him striking an umpire, so MLB must not have thought it was an issue) (3:20ish mark). Gomez made a comment afterwards that the video makes it look like he was throwing punches that he denies that was what he was doing. If he was throwing punches, he was the worst punch thrower in the history of punch throwing, because his arm movements never came close to landing and don't look anything like normal punching motions. Based on video evidence and Gomez's comments, I stand by my comment that I don't think Gomez threw any punches. I don't see any punches from Gomez in the video. If you see one, please point it out.

From the 3:20 mark on, keep your eye on Snider, watch the path he takes to track down Gomez, get separated by from the pack, and then re-track down Gomez, and then attempt to strike gomez up high before taking him down. If you think Gomez is the aggressor, then we disagree on what being an aggressor is.
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Scott perfected this 2 times, last at 04/23/2014 8:31:39 am
scott.jpgScott - 6225 Posts
04/23/2014 @ 09:13:37 AM
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One more thing about Gomez and I promise I'm done. For whatever reason, the general baseball community (from commentators to former and current players) don't really like the way Gomez goes about the game. Something about enjoying what you do rubs people the wrong way. His supposed reputation that has followed him now since that Braves fiasco last year (which he has been nothing but contrite about) seemed to start earlier than that, and for no apparent reason. The fact the sprints around the bases on a home run rubs people the wrong way. (so if he runs too slow he gets scolded, and if he runs too fast he's immature). He has caught the ire of commentators and players alike for claims that at times he "swings too hard" (with comments like "there was a time when if you swung like that the next pitch would be in your ear"). They want to believe that Gomez calculates his moves that he's either playing some sort of mind game or is intentionally trying to disrespect his opponents or worse that he just doesn't understand how we do things here in the good ol' U.S of A. So if Gomez has some reputation for being this way, it seems moreso because some people wanted him to have that reputation and they simply now have 1 notable incident (the Braves fiasco) to hang their hats on, with the Pirates incident (with it's fabricated narrative that Gomez simply decided he wanted to fight the Pirates--which being perpetuated by some pretty high end sources, including ESPN). Basically, baseball--and those that it surrounds itself with--needs to get its collective head out of its butt and start accepting and celebrating guys like Gomez and scolding actions like Cole's, because Gomez and his unapologetic (and honestly quite innocent) enthusiasm for the game of baseball is only good for the game and where this game might go in the future. "It's a game. Enjoy it"

Also, becoming possibly the most disliked team in baseball, especially when the reasons seem to stem from something as ridiculous as "they have too much fun over there" actually makes it that much more enjoyable.
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Scott perfected this at 04/23/2014 9:18:50 am
fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 8953 Posts
04/23/2014 @ 11:34:25 AM
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Scott Wrote - Today @ 08:00:44 AM
So the Brewers should start a fight the next time they face the Pirates and they'll get off scott free because McCutchen is asking for a fight because he watches his hits, right?


If by that you mean "someone might say something" then sure. I'm sure it happens all the time.

Scott Wrote - Today @ 08:00:44 AM
And Cole approached Gomez with his chirping. He wasn't saying it from the mound.


Irrelevant. He wasn't on the mound to begin with.

Scott Wrote - Today @ 08:00:44 AM
He was seeking out Gomez to give him a piece of his mind. He should certainly be held responsible for SOMETHING based on the fact that his deliberate actions were what sparked everything.


I think we could debate how much he "sought out" Gomez, but he ultimately didn't actually DO anything other than say some words. Besides which, you might be tilting at windmills anyway here, because I'm not sure anyone is arguing the pitcher was 0% responsible.

Scott Wrote - Today @ 08:00:44 AM
My point about that is this: You'd be hard pressed to convince me that a guy who watches a homerun (or close, if that is what he was doing) is an intentional act to piss someone off. If someone thinks that, especially with Gomez, then they've got an agenda.


Intentionally trying to piss someone off isn't the point. It does. Maybe it should, maybe it shouldn't, but it does.

Scott Wrote - Today @ 08:00:44 AM
But that being said, Cole was clearly asking to start something by his actions.


Right, which is why when the police show up to arrest person a for punching person b they let him go if person b "said anything" first.

Scott Wrote - Today @ 08:00:44 AM
And I'm not sure what you are seeing in that video, but Snider was clearly the one who escalated things.


Disagree. Gomez had already removed his helmet, left third, was yelling back, and was being restrained.

Scott Wrote - Today @ 08:00:44 AM
Things are relatively calm until Snider basically tracks down Gomez


Not really, but it's really kind of a silly point.

Scott Wrote - Today @ 08:00:44 AM
Until he and gomez come to blows


With Gomez being the one that moves from "war of words" to blows. Your entire argument seems to basically be "Gomez is blameless for going off raining punches on guys like a lunatic, as long as anyone said or did something first". This is simply not the way the world works.

Scott Wrote - Today @ 08:00:44 AM
with Snider being the one who put Gomez in an MMA tackdown.


This simply doesn't happen anywhere.

Scott Wrote - Today @ 08:00:44 AM
But if you don't have a problem with a guy coming off the bench and starting a fight with something, this discussion might not get very far.


Benches clear in baseball. Not really an issue of my opinion of it. This wasn't unique.

Scott Wrote - Today @ 08:00:44 AM
Regarding who was the instigator: If the schoolyard bully starts picking on a kid, and the kid stands up for himself, is the kid being picked on the instigator? Gomez was provoked and baited repeatedly by Cole and then Snider (who had absolutely no business being anywhere near Gomez). Viturally nothing in the world was going on until Snider got involved; it was an argument (albeit somewhat heated) between two players. That in my opinion makes Snider if not 100% responsible, then at least 75%. And frankly, I have little sympathy for Snider and getting decked. When you instigate a fight and end up on top of the guy who are fighting, you're again like the schoolyard bully that cries to the teacher the minute your victim fights back. There was no "brawl" until Snider got involved. Explain to me how that statement is wrong.


I can't wrap my mind about how silly that statement is to even come up with a cogent reply. I think, being generous, you're conflating "understanding" and "lack of blame". Understanding that what happened could set Gomez off is not the same as "so then he's blameless". There's no brawl until there's a brawl, and Gomez made it a brawl by not being able to control his emotions in a manner we expect every single member of society to all the time.

You can't hit people every time they make you mad. We teach this to 3 year olds.

Bullying is a longer term systematic mental torture of someone. If someone walks up to you in a bar and says "You're ugly", you will, and should, get in trouble for responding with punches. If someone walks up to you in a bar and says "Your wife and kids are ugly", and you respond with punches, you will, and should, get in trouble, even if every single person involved understands why you did what you did. This isn't the same as a bully finally "being stood up to." (And frankly, I'm not sure a victim of long term bullying wouldn't/shouldn't get in trouble for responding with violence anyway.)

Scott Wrote - Today @ 08:00:44 AM
We'll probably end up agreeing to disagree, but I don't really agree with much or any of your assessment; especially since your timeline doesn't mention anything about Snider (between 4 and 5 it should say something about Snider deliberately seeking out Gomez and obviously saying something set him off). Gomez flipped his bat and his action was misinterpreted by a 2nd year pitcher who decided to name himself the chief officer of the baseball morality police (who by the way admitted after the game that he had no business approaching Gomez in the first place). Other than Gomez's reaction (which I'll admit could have been calmer, certainly) to being baited at least twice, I place virtually no blame on him at all. The only thing he is truly is guilty of (other than some stupid unwritten rule that 75% of players violate and that Gomez has hardly even guilty of breaking this time) was reacting to a pitcher who had no business getting spouting off.

The headline on Baseball Tonight's link to the annoucement of the suspensions was "Gomez gets 3 games for starting a brawl." That's a flat out lie. Like I said before, there was no "brawl" until some bench player gets up in Gomez's face.

note: this comment contains a bit of a ramble, so if I repeated myself within the post or even within the same paragraph, I apologize.


Agreed to disagree.

Scott Wrote - Today @ 08:23:35 AM
Watching the video again, I honestly don't think the action that Gomez makes after Snider baited him was Gomez throwing punches. Personally I think he is trying to free himself from umpire's restraint, like an escape move.


5 feet away from the umpire, at a guys face.

Scott Wrote - Today @ 08:23:35 AM
If he was throwing punches, he was the worst punch thrower in the history of punch throwing, because his arm movements never came close to landing and don't look anything like normal punching motions. Based on video evidence and Gomez's comments, I stand by my comment that I don't think Gomez threw any punches. I don't see any punches from Gomez in the video. If you see one, please point it out.


Because that's what real world fights look like. Even in places where fights are routine, like hockey, how many punches actually land? People get tangled up and they flail around like idiots.

Scott Wrote - Today @ 08:23:35 AM
From the 3:20 mark on, keep your eye on Snider, watch the path he takes to track down Gomez, get separated by from the pack, and then re-track down Gomez, and then attempt to strike gomez up high before taking him down. If you think Gomez is the aggressor, then we disagree on what being an aggressor is.


Very much so. Though, again, I'm not sure anyone is making a case Snider is 0% responsible, it's just that your "Gomez is the victim here and bares little responsibility for this" angle is just bizarre to me. Gomez shares responsibility for the initial spark, Gomez's reaction to a reaction cleared the benches, Gomez's reaction the guys that cleared the benches made it a fight. The Pirates involved might share a greater percentage of responsibility than 0, but it was what Gomez did that took it to the next level at every turn.
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Jeremy screwed with this 12 times, last at 04/23/2014 1:40:13 pm
2887.gifAlex - 3618 Posts
04/23/2014 @ 01:13:35 PM
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Gomez way over reacted and escalated. Sticks and stones yo.

Having a rule to prevent benches clearing onto the field would probably have prevented it from being anything more than a shouting match.

Scott Wrote - Today @ 09:13:37 AM
Also, becoming possibly the most disliked team in baseball, especially when the reasons seem to stem from something as ridiculous as "they have too much fun over there" actually makes it that much more enjoyable.

http://ronroenickestolemybaseball.com/2014/04/22/despicable-brewers/

Check out this jerk and his hotdogging, what a disgrace.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/mlb/albert-pujols-knocks-career-home-run-no-500?ymd=20140422&content_id=72995296&vkey=news_mlb
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jeremy.jpgJeremy - 8953 Posts
04/23/2014 @ 01:44:59 PM
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Alex Wrote - Today @ 01:13:35 PM
Having a rule to prevent benches clearing onto the field would probably have prevented it from being anything more than a shouting match.


Probably, but I'm not sure how I feel about it. I think "the benches clearing" is a fun little wrinkle in baseball, but I can see the case for such a rule too.
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scott.jpgScott - You're going to have to call your hardware guy. It's not a software issue.
04/23/2014 @ 02:12:40 PM
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Jeremy Wrote - Today @ 11:34:25 AM

Scott Wrote - Today @ 08:23:35 AM
From the 3:20 mark on, keep your eye on Snider, watch the path he takes to track down Gomez, get separated by from the pack, and then re-track down Gomez, and then attempt to strike gomez up high before taking him down. If you think Gomez is the aggressor, then we disagree on what being an aggressor is.


Very much so. Though, again, I'm not sure anyone is making a case Snider is 0% responsible, it's just that your "Gomez is the victim here and bares little responsibility for this" angle is just bizarre to me. Gomez shares responsibility for the initial spark, Gomez's reaction to a reaction cleared the benches, Gomez's reaction the guys that cleared the benches made it a fight. The Pirates involved might share a greater percentage of responsibility than 0, but it was what Gomez did that took it to the next level at every turn.


I think I can agree with this, except the part that gomez took to the next level at every turn. Of course, Snider took it to the next level too by going after Gomez, then gomez took it up a notch by escaping the umpire's grasp--I don't see Gomez throwing a punch(it's understanable that Snider might have thought so, but those that review the video and decide on punishments and eventually hear the appeal should listen and review the idea that what Gomez was doing was anything but throwing punches)--, and then snider again took it up a notch by running down a retreating, if not more heavily restrained Gomez. So the last guy that took anything up a notch was, again, Snider. I'm not necessarily saying that Gomez doesn't deserve his suspension (even though I sort of did even in so many words). But if he gets suspended, then Snider's suspension should be equal. And again to paint this as Gomez instigating a brawl ignore everything that I just said. Snider is at a minimum 50% responsible for any of the suspensions that happened, and that is as low as I am willing to concede. Without his provokation and subsequent redeployed assault, no one gets suspended and no punches are thrown.

To address another comment of yours that I don't feel like going through the hassel of quoting properly ("Though, again, I'm not sure anyone is making a case Snider is 0% responsible"): by making every headline focused on Gomez starting a brawl, the collective national media is doing exactly that, or if not 0% then mere bystander. At one point, on announcement of the suspension, ESPN in an article (that they subsequently changed wording) had these words almost exactly "as the teams converged, Maldonado punched Snider in the side of the head". There was 0 mention about Snider tackling Gomez and being on top of Gomez at the time and Weeks and Maldy trying to free Gomez from an attacker. If you hadn't known anything about the incident, you would have come away with the idea that the Brewers backup catcher just decided to punch someone. So yes, people are essentially making the case that Snider is close to 0% responsible for this, not the least of these people were at one point ESPN.
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Scott messed with this at 04/23/2014 2:16:08 pm
scott.jpgScott - No, I did not change your screen saver settings
04/23/2014 @ 02:20:25 PM
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Alex Wrote - Today @ 01:13:35 PM
Gomez way over reacted and escalated. Sticks and stones yo.

Having a rule to prevent benches clearing onto the field would probably have prevented it from being anything more than a shouting match.

Scott Wrote - Today @ 09:13:37 AM
Also, becoming possibly the most disliked team in baseball, especially when the reasons seem to stem from something as ridiculous as "they have too much fun over there" actually makes it that much more enjoyable.

http://ronroenickestolemybaseball.com/2014/04/22/despicable-brewers/



Martin Maldonado

Over the past three days Martin Maldonado hit a baseball so hard he destroyed it, hit Travis Snider in the head so hard he destroyed it, and destroyed Jody Mercer on a questionable takeout slide. His twitter handle is @Machete1224 . He’s basically already a super villain.


I enjoyed this page too much, especially the part about Maldonado.

Actually, this might be the best thing I've read on the internet in a while:
The national media and all opposing fans are going to call Braun a cheater and Gomez a thug, and that’s just how it’s going to be. The Brewers know this which is why they hired a puppy to be the face of the franchise. What do you think they’re trying to hide?
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Scott perfected this 3 times, last at 04/23/2014 2:25:06 pm
jeremy.jpgJeremy - 8953 Posts
04/23/2014 @ 02:43:55 PM
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Scott Wrote - Today @ 02:12:40 PM
There was 0 mention about Snider tackling Gomez and being on top of Gomez at the time


Maybe it's because that never happened. emoticon

You cannot simultaneously hold the views that people talking at someone deserves physical retaliation, and hold the view that Snider doesn't "get to" retaliate to a guy that just attempted to land a haymaker to his face. Other than Snider going over there Gomez is even the pretty clear aggressor of their second interaction. Snider basically does nothing but put up his hands to block Gomez's double handed hammer drop.

There's really no reason to view the fact that Gomez retreated after realizing he just started a physical altercation while, at the moment, surrounded by Pirates isn't "restraint", he's clearly still engaged in the moment, he's just not an idiot. You better hit and run if you try to deck a guy in the middle of 10 of his friends that already have a decent enough reason to be pissed at you.
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Jeremy edited this at 04/23/2014 2:50:00 pm
scott.jpgScott - 6225 Posts
04/23/2014 @ 02:50:47 PM
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Jeremy Wrote - Today @ 02:43:55 PM
Scott Wrote - Today @ 02:12:40 PM
There was 0 mention about Snider tackling Gomez and being on top of Gomez at the time


Maybe it's because that never happened. emoticon

You cannot simultaneously hold the views that people talking at someone deserves physical retaliation, and hold the view that Snider doesn't "get to" retaliate to a guy that just attempted to land a haymaker to his face. Other than Snider going over there Gomez is even the pretty clear aggressor of their second interaction. Snider basically does nothing but put up his hands to block Gomez's double handed hammer drop.


While I disagree that Gomez attempted a punch (nor was the much of a "physical retaliation" (ie: fisticuffs/altercation) on Gomez's part, other than being animated), You didn't see Snider get backed off (not by Gomez, but perhaps just by the scrum) and then from about 20 or 30 feet away sprint after Gomez to be the very first one back in Gomez's face and knock him to the ground? So Snider was at no point on top of Gomez having to be peeled off by Weeks? We're watching the same video, right?
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Scott edited this at 04/23/2014 2:55:13 pm
fry6beeu9.jpgJeremy - 8953 Posts
04/23/2014 @ 03:03:24 PM
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Scott Wrote - Today @ 02:50:47 PM
So Snider was at no point on top of Gomez having to be peeled off by Weeks? We're watching the same video, right?


Come on man. That just isn't what happened. Snider isn't "on top of" Gomez. He's never "peeled off" Gomez. If you wanted to be so liberal with what you meant by that they no longer mean what anyone ever anywhere would call "being on top of someone and needing to be peeled off", especially in the context of a fight...still no not really.

Maybe that's what WOULD have happened, but we don't know, because Weeks gets involved .00001 seconds after Gomez falls down, while Snider is still on his feet. Throughout the entirety of that exchange Snider is not standing completely upright a blink of an eye, is never "on top of" Gomez, except for perhaps the most liberal definition of "some part of Snider occupied the spacetime between Gomez and the sky", and is in no way "peeled off" by Weeks.

Even the nano second in time in all this Snider is even slightly bent over Weeks is already making contact, possibly pushing him from behind, and by the time he's bent kneed Weeks is jumping on him.
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Jeremy messed with this 6 times, last at 04/23/2014 4:45:50 pm
thumbnailCAW1I0O3.gifMatt - 3354 Posts
04/23/2014 @ 03:19:40 PM
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In baseball, batters and pitchers start barking at each other all of the time. While the reasons behind the yelling are often stupid, the fact is that it's pretty much an accepted part of baseball. Even when benches clear because of this, if all that happens is players shouting at each other, nothing becomes of it... that's where the line is in baseball, as long as it doesn't become physical, it's usually ok.

This is why, no matter what your feelings are about whether Gomez was showing up the Pirates, or whether Cole should have said anything to Gomez in the first place, Gomez deserves the blame for transitioning the matter from a verbal spat into a physical fight. If you look at the video, Cole says something, and starts heading back to the mound, stops a bit when Gomez takes some steps towards him, yelling back. Cole, then, starts back towards the mound, guided by the Brewers 3rd base coach. At this point Cole's part in this is done, and he has done nothing outside the accepted norms of baseball arguments, and is even the first party to remove himself from the argument. I don't see how he would deserve any punishment at all. This doesn't mean he had no part in starting the argument, but that nothing he did caused the argument to go outside what baseball considers acceptable.

As for Gomez... Like I said before, he starts by taking a few steps off of the base, which probably didn't help, but is ok, I guess. What's isn't ok, is right after when he takes a few more deliberate steps towards Cole, who is already retreating (though remains jawing at Gomez). That causes the umpire to get in front of Gomez, who then starts trying to escape the ump and get to Cole. That's the first real escalation and it's entirely Gomez's fault there. It also causes the Pirates players to jump in the middle, to protect their pitcher. If Gomez quits here, everything is most likely forgotten about and no punishments are handed out (even for Gomez getting slightly physical with an umpire). Of course, it doesn't stop there. This is where Snider starts walking towards Gomez and starts jawing at him. Snider does deserve blame here for continuing the tensions and provoking Gomez, but again, this still is just yelling at this point. It's Gomez who, again, tries, and this time succeeds at turning things physical.

Gomez is being restrained by one umpire while another is in the process of getting in front of Snider to turn him away, when Gomez again breaks free of the umpire holding him back and goes after Snider. Gomez then throws a punch at Snider, though he fails to connect. This is arguably when the "brawl" starts, and while Snider played a part, it was Gomez's actions that caused this to escalate into a physical fight.

Once the melee starts, Snider and Gomez get separated and at that point Snider does sprint towards Gomez, who got dislodged from the main pack of players. Gomez ends up on the ground (it actually looks like Gomez tried another punch and missed/was blocked, and as a result loses his balance... he needs some boxing lessons), and as Snider tries to go after Gomez on the ground, he is pulled away by a Brewer (Weeks, possibly), and then is punched by Maldonado.

I think Gomez and Maldonado deserve the punishments they got. I think Cole deserves the non-punishment he got, and I think Snider probably deserved at least a game for his role in the fight. Bottom line though, Gomez escalated things at least twice and seemed to be the first, if not, only person who wanted things to get physical. As such, saying Gomez started/caused the brawl is perfectly acceptable.

The Ombudsman has spoken.
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Matt messed with this 7 times, last at 04/23/2014 4:32:56 pm
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